Status of Women Committee on April 29th, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 16 of the Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Tuesday, February 1, the committee will commence its study on resource development and violence against indigenous women and girls.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. Per the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on March 10, 2022, all those attending in person must wear a mask, except for members who are at their place during the proceedings.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to state a few rules for the witnesses and members.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are participating by video conference, click the microphone icon to activate your mike. Please put your mike on mute when you are not speaking. For the interpretation, if you are participating in the meeting via Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. If you are participating in person, you can use the headset provided and select the channel you want. I would remind the members and witnesses that all their comments must be addressed through the chair. Just so witnesses are aware, if anything comes up, we will seek unanimous consent to pause the proceedings.

I want to welcome our witnesses to today's panel. As an individual, we have Pamela Palmater, chair in indigenous governance at Ryerson University, now known as Toronto Metropolitan University. We also have Kathleen Quinn, executive director of the Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation; Viviane Doré-Nadeau, director of ConcertAction Femmes Estrie; and, from the Quebec Native Women Inc., we have Marjolaine Étienne, president, and Stéfanie Sirois-Gauthier, legal and policy analyst.

We'll begin with opening remarks. You will each be provided with five minutes. When you see me hold the red folder, that means you have one minute, so please begin to wrap up.

I'm now going to turn the floor over to Pamela Palmater for five minutes.

[Dr. Pamela Palmater, Chair in Indigenous Governance, Ryerson University, As an Individual]

Thank you.

Kwe' Ni'n teluisi Pam Palmater. I am from the sovereign Mi’kmaq nation and unceded Mi'kma'ki. My home community is Ugpi’Ganjig Eel River Bar First Nation. Today I'm coming to you from the sovereign territories of the Mississaugas of Scugog.

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this important study on the relationship between resource development and violence against indigenous women and girls. This is something I've worked on for quite a long time, not just for the national inquiry but also for international human rights.

I think it's appropriate to start with the fact that several years ago, KWG Resources Inc., a Canadian mining company, posted a video online of women in bikinis to promote mining on indigenous lands in the Ring of Fire. The then president, Frank Smeenk, defended the video, saying that “sex sells” mining. This goes to show just one of many examples that mining is not just about exploiting minerals on indigenous lands. It's about the exploitation of local indigenous women and girls as well.

Sadly, this is consistent with research and statistics on Canadian extractive companies in particular. In 2009 a secret report commissioned by the Prospectors & Developers Association of Canada confirmed that Canadian mining corporations are the worst human rights violators globally—not just here in Canada but all around the world—and that they are far more likely to engage in unlawful activities and grave human rights violations despite the fact that they all have corporate social responsibility policies.

It's not limited to mining. Obviously, it's also other extractive industry. We know that high-risk projects include resource development but also the extractive industry and transnational corporations specifically; energy projects like hydro and nuclear; and megaprojects that include major construction and decommissioning projects, highways, airports, bridges, roads and tunnels. The high-risk areas within those projects include man camps but also the high influx of temporary or transient workers who are predominantly male: the trucking industry, the transportation industry, private security and, sadly, law enforcement.

The types of violence that indigenous women and girls are subjected to by all of those players are increased rates of physical violence, including but not limited to domestic violence, high rates of sexual exploitation and sex trafficking, sexual assaults and rapes, and increased rates of disappearance. This is in addition to the failure of all of those parties just mentioned to not respect the aboriginal title of indigenous women and girls; their aboriginal and treaty rights; their rights to self-determination, which includes an equal voice in decision-making; and the right to have free, prior and informed consent—basically, the right to say no to violence.

Canada as a state has failed to protect the rights of indigenous women and girls by not preventing the racism, sexism, misogyny and sexualized violence by state actors like law enforcement, in particular the RCMP; private actors like human sex traffickers; and corporate actors like those engaged in man camps, private security and especially the trucking industry.

The failure to address all of these things has led to severe rates of sexualized violence, but it's also important to note that Canada as a state has the responsibility to uphold the human rights of these women regardless of what their constitutional makeup is. It is not a defence in international law to say that the provinces are responsible for this and we're responsible for that. Canada as a state is responsible for all of it. Its continued failures hurt indigenous women and girls directly.

This PDAC report, FBI reports, Amnesty International, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights and the United Nations—all have concluded that indigenous women and girls face high rates of sexualized violence and criminalization, and surveillance by state, private and corporate actors.

In terms of solutions, we need a public inquiry into the relationship between all of these resource and extractive projects and megaprojects by state actors and corporate and private actors.

We need to respect the right of indigenous women and girls and their nations to say no to projects. We should heed the UNCERD calls to halt all megaprojects until there is free, prior and informed consent.

We must give reparations to those who have been harmed and ensure that indigenous women are key decision-makers moving forward.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you, Ms. Palmater.

We will now go to Viviane Doré-Nadeau for five minutes.

[Viviane Doré-Nadeau, Director, ConcertAction Femmes Estrie]

Good afternoon.

On behalf of ConcertAction Femmes Estrie, I want to thank the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women for inviting our organization to take part in its study on resource development and violence against indigenous women and girls.

. As we do at assemblies of ConcertAction Femmes Estrie, I would like to acknowledge that our offices are situated on the traditional unceded lands of the first peoples. I want to pay tribute to their presence and their role as guardians of the lands and waters where each of us stands today. As members of a feminist organization focused on social and environmental justice, we believe it is essential to acknowledge the past and present consequences of colonialism and to support the indigenous resistance on these lands. I commit to ensuring that I am guided by these words and intentions in my remarks here today.

As ConcertAction Femmes Estrie is not an indigenous organization, it will be hard for me to testify personally to the impact of extractivist violence on indigenous women and girls. I will therefore try to make the best use of the privilege we have of speaking today.

ConcertAction Femmes Estrie is an issue table consisting of some 30 member groups. Its mission is to advocate for the rights of women. It coordinates the World Women's March—Estrie committee, which assists in coordinating that international organization in Quebec.

The World Women's March—Estrie committee has established ties of solidarity with indigenous women, more specifically those from the Macronorte region of Peru, who are also involved in the World Women's March.

The World Women's March—Estrie committee first became interested in Canadian mining companies in 2015 in the course of actions organized on the theme of liberating our bodies, our land and our territories and influenced by the indigenous women of the south. The indigenous women reminded us that we belong to the earth and that the earth does not belong to us. They also said that the systems of colonialism and patriarchy exploit mother earth just as they exploit women's bodies.

In discussing resource development and the violence committed against indigenous women and girls, we must understand that two very different cultures are involved and that different systems of oppression come into play.

First, the present government and the practices of the mining companies appropriate the land of indigenous peoples and thus perpetuate colonialism. That prevents them from living on their lands. We must remember that 66% of mining operations around the world is conducted by companies headquartered in Canada.

Indigenous people have lived here for more than 10,000 years, and when the Europeans arrived, the lands and water were intact. After 600 years of living on these lands, we have already polluted all the waterways, destroyed the forests and torn apart the earth. That also constitutes a form of violence.

When we refer to violence against indigenous women and girls, another system of oppression comes into play, and that is patriarchy, which causes violence against women.

According to a study conducted by the Native Women's Association of Canada in 2021, more than half of the women surveyed had been victims of repetitive violence, sexual harassment and psychological violence at five different mining sites. One woman said she had been fired after reporting a problem to her company, while another woman was asked to remain silent.

The report on the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls outlines the violence that is committed around workers camps at natural resource development sites.

In 2017, the Firelight Research Group published a report stating that sexual assault cases had increased 38% in the first year of the construction phase of a camp in the Fort St. James area.

Last Monday, the World Women's March—Estrie organized a meeting with indigenous women from Peru and Argentina. A Canadian mining company has appropriated 90% of the lands of one community in Peru, leaving only its school, health centre and place of worship. When the community objected to the land grab, it was subjected to violent repressive acts. Some individuals suffered permanent after-effects such as the loss of vision and paralysis. Activists in Argentina were imprisoned after resisting attempts to establish the mine there.

We want measures to be taken to improve the situation.

For example, efforts must be made through the education system to talk to children about gender equality, to show children and adolescents that violence is unacceptable and to teach them to build non-violent, compassionate relationships.

Mining companies should also be required to enforce a policy against the psychological and sexual harassment of women.

Furthermore, we ask that indigenous female workers be informed of their rights of recourse in the event of psychological and sexual violence.

Furthermore, Canada should increase the resources and powers of the Canadian Ombudsman for Responsible Enterprise, who acts as an advocate in matters pertaining to Canadian mining interests and has power to sanction.

We also ask that Canada pass legislation on due diligence with respect to human and environmental rights.

Legislation to prevent planned obsolescence should also be enacted.

Lastly, we demand that the activists imprisoned in Argentina be released.

Thank you very much for listening.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you, Madame Doré-Nadeau.

We will now hear from Kathleen Quinn.

Go ahead for five minutes.

[Kathleen Quinn, Executive Director, Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for this opportunity.

I am calling in from the traditional territories of Treaty No. 6 first nations and Métis zone 4. I have served as the executive director for CEASE, the Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation, for 25 years. I speak from the experience of a community-based organization responding to commercial sexual exploitation, sex trafficking and violence against girls and women, many of whom are indigenous.

Edmonton is known as a gateway to the north and the north is known for resource extraction industries, including oil, gas and coal. There is also a significant logging industry often adjacent to these resource extraction industries. All of these industries impact every aspect of life in first nations and Métis communities. While these communities strive to create positive socio-economic outcomes by engaging with the resource development companies, there are negative impacts.

I will focus my comments on migration from communities near resource development industries and the violence indigenous girls and women face when they leave for towns and cities.

A key vulnerability factor is transportation. There are many communities where there is no or very limited access to buses. Hitching a ride puts youth and women at risk of male drivers who may demand sexual services in exchange. When they are dropped off in a nearby town or city, they encounter more risks.

Over 70% of Edmonton's indigenous population originate from other communities. The 2016 census identifies that indigenous people comprised 5.5% of the population. The indigenous population of central Edmonton neighbourhoods, where I live, ranges from 10% to 17.5%. These neighbourhoods are often where indigenous youth and adults migrate first and where they are preyed upon by sex trade exploiters, traffickers, gangs and drug trade profiteers.

While industry work camps are able to establish codes of conduct for workers and contractors on site, there is little control when they leave the camps and travel to nearby towns and cities. This demand by males for access to female bodies fuels the sex trade, especially when women have few economic options. Where there is a demand, there are also those who see a business opportunity to traffic in human beings.

At least 44 sexually exploited women, including transgender and two-spirit persons, were murdered in the Edmonton area in the past 39 years. Many were last seen in our central Edmonton communities, and then their bodies were found outside the city. Over 52% were identified as indigenous, which shows the overrepresentation of indigenous girls and women exploited through sexual violence in the sex trade. Only 11 of these murders have been solved.

For those who survive, they endure the harsh reality of the long-term physical and mental health impact of sexual violence. When compounded with poverty, precarious housing, racism and intergenerational trauma, many indigenous girls and women live the majority of their lives in these conditions of vulnerability. This needs to change.

In conclusion, resource industries must continue to work with indigenous and Métis communities on community plans to decrease violence and sexual exploitation and increase safety and well-being for indigenous girls and women.

They can expand their codes of conduct for workers and contractors to include training on sexual violence, commercial sexual exploitation and human trafficking, such as Enbridge is doing on May 4 for all of their North American operations. They can fund community safety initiatives, employment training bursaries and financial literacy programs both on first nations and Métis communities, and in towns and cities. They can develop wellness programs for the male workforce and focus on positive masculinity, healthy relationships and healthy coping strategies to deal with the unusual workplace stresses required in the resources industry.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Thank you, Ms. Quinn.

Finally, we will hear from the representative from Quebec Native Women Inc.

You have five minutes.

[Marjolaine Étienne, President, Quebec Native Women Inc.]

Kuei, hello.

Madam Chair, I would like to take a minute to inform you that I will have to leave you at 2:15 p.m. because I have another engagement at the United Nations. My colleague Stéfanie Sirois-Gauthier will finish the meeting with you.

First of all, I would like to thank the members of this committee for affording Quebec Native Women, or QNW, the opportunity to discuss issues of concern arising from the violence, in all its forms, experienced by the indigenous women and girls of Quebec.

For 48 years, QNW has worked for and contributed to the restoration of a balance between men and women, both indigenous and non-indigenous, by giving voice to the needs and priorities of women.

Promoting non-violence has been QNW's main focus since its inception. Our organization therefore thanks the Standing Committee on the Status of Women for listening to our priorities on the issue of violence as it pertains to mining.

It goes without saying that indigenous women and girls are disproportionately victims of violence in all its forms, by which I mean physical, psychological and sexual violence, but also cultural, mental, spiritual, social, institutional and financial violence. These forms of violence are present in our communities and urban environments. Indigenous women and girls deserve protection from the scourge of violence in all its forms, which has been an additional burden during the pandemic. This violence is the result of all forms of colonial policy that were and still are designed to assimilate indigenous people, more particularly indigenous women.

The report on the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, or NIMMIWG, states that mining formed the basis of colonization policies. The objective was to develop an international trade based on resources and a land never conceded as belonging to the indigenous communities that occupied it, and to do so without their agreement or consent.

The NIMMIWG report condemns the fact that indigenous women and girls are 12 times more likely to be murdered than any other women in Canada, precisely because they are marginalized persons. The discriminatory, patriarchal and assimilatory policies, as well as the indigenous residential schools that were established, are convincing examples that have had, and still have, heavy and permanent intergenerational repercussions. They amount to a slow but devastating genocide.

It scarcely bears mentioning how harmful this has been in the communities and for all indigenous women. I do not want to downplay the violence experienced by women generally, but statistics very clearly show that indigenous women are far more affected by violence than their non-indigenous sisters.

Calls for justice 13.1 to 13.5 in the NIMMIWG report refer expressly to the resource-extraction industries and their impact on indigenous women, girls and 2SLGBTQQIA+ people. These calls for justice mainly request that the safety and security of indigenous women be considered when resource extraction and development are carried out. For that purpose, they must be made stakeholders in the process before, during and after projects are implemented. Projects must also be subject to socioeconomic impact assessments.

The government is also asked to fund research projects on these issues, and the industries concerned are asked to expand and reinforce existing social infrastructure and increase service delivery capacity.

Since we are here today to discuss the violence that indigenous women and girls experience in a resource development context, our organization wonders whether these calls for justice will in fact be answered. Is the project analysis process complete and multifactorial? What are the criteria for project implementation or non-implementation? Are representative indigenous persons, experts and organizations sitting or represented on the various committees? And what of the ongoing monitoring referred to in call for justice 13.2?

All these questions in fact lead back to one single question: does the implementation of development projects actually take into consideration the safety, protection and well-being of indigenous women and girls?

These calls for justice also concern the right to free, prior and informed consent guaranteed under articles 18, 19 and 38 of the United Nations Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and Canadian constitutional law. It goes without saying that the principle of honour of the Crown is not being honoured in any appreciable way.

Our organization is also concerned about the action taken in response to call for justice 13.5 in the NIMMIWG report, under which governments are supposed to provide further funding for research projects undertaken to understand the problem more clearly. For example, in March 2021, the Native Women's Association of Canada released a relevant study on this point, lamenting the fact that women who work in the resource-extraction industry experience incidents such as unwanted touching and emotional abuse and are subjected to sexual comments, sexual harassment and violence.

One question nevertheless remains: what other recent studies expose the problem? Are there any current studies on the violence that occurs off mining sites? The answer that our organization would like to give is that too few studies have been conducted for women to be heard.

Slightly more women have been working on sites in recent years, but it has previously been acknowledged…

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

I'm sorry—

[Marjolaine Étienne]

…that 99% of jobs are occupied by men.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

That is your time. You can add more points in your answers. Thank you.

With that, I thank all of our witnesses for your testimony.

We are now going to start our round of questions. For the first round, we'll start with Ms. Dominque Vien.

You have six minutes. Go ahead.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thanks to each of you for this very important testimony.

My first question is for Pamela Palmater.

Ms. Palmater, you indicated that Canada is failing to protect indigenous women. What has the government not done and what should it have done?

[Dr. Pamela Palmater]

Thank you very much for the question. I think it's an important one.

Throughout our history, Canada has failed to respect the basic human rights of indigenous women and girls. You can see that in how indigenous women and girls were treated, the theft of children into residential schools, forced sterilizations, scalping bounties and the institutionalization of women, of course. Also, throughout the Indian Act, indigenous women were treated as not being Indian enough to belong to their communities, which set them outside of their communities and put them at risk. There's a long history of law and policy in that regard.

There's also what's happening today, such as the continued forced foster care situation theft of women, the sexual assaults by state actors like the RCMP, police, doctors and nurses—

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Palmater. Pardon me for interrupting, but I have very little time.

How do you view the issue of violence against indigenous women in mining development and resource extraction? I think it's a shared responsibility. I said last week that everyone should be concerned about the situation, the chief of police, the RCMP in this instance, and community leaders, corporate managers and their owners. Where do we begin? Do we sit everyone down around the same table? Ms. Étienne and Ms. Quinn touched on this. Where do we begin? We can't stop economic development, but we can be better and do things better. How do we go about it?

[Dr. Pamela Palmater]

In fact, I think the starting premise is that we can stop certain projects. The presumption that all projects must go through in all situations, no matter what the human cost is, is how we got into this. Some projects are simply not safe for the environment or indigenous peoples.

The federal government has significant financial and political levers in its relationships with the provinces and territories. They have the ability to make it conditional that any federal approvals, any federal support and any federal money is conditional on a guarantee of prevention of violence against indigenous women and girls in all of its forms, also to purposefully investigate, prosecute and rout out all of the RCMP sex offenders, all of the man camp sex offenders and all of the corporate sex offenders doing these things both in Canada and around the world.

We shouldn't be talking about Canadian mining companies that are engaged in gang rapes, and that's what's happening here in Canada, the United States and around the world. Canada has the legal obligation to stop that, and it has the tools to do that.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Palmater.

Ms. Étienne, you mentioned federal research projects. Do you think we have a lot of data on resource development and violence against women?

Do we have conclusive data on that?

[Marjolaine Étienne]

As I mentioned, there's very little documentation on indigenous women and resource development. I think women have to have their own place in natural resource development. It's not just a matter of being able to hunt big game. That power was historically reserved for men and still is today. Indigenous women are allowed to engage in another activity that's more cultural in nature. I'm talking about picking berries and medicinal plants. So we'd better find a place in resource development.

Here's a telling example. Plants may be uprooted during forestry and other resource development operations, which prevents them from growing back. Consequently, funding should be provided for research projects in that field as well.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Étienne.

My final question is for Ms. Quinn.

How do you view accountability…

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

I'm sorry, Ms. Vien, but that's your time.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Perhaps I can come back to that later if I have the time. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sonia Sidhu]

Now we go to Ms. Lambropoulos for another six minutes.

Please go ahead, Emmanuella.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to begin by thanking all of our witnesses for being here with us today. Thank you for the great testimony and for being here to answer our questions.

My first questions are for Ms. Palmater.

Thank you very much for your very passionate testimony. I can see how much this issue is one that you care deeply about. A lot of the statistics and facts that you mentioned were very shocking to me. It's great that we're learning about this, at least here. I'd like to know and get a bit of your input specifically on how we can make things better.

In terms of what happens in Canada, you mentioned the RCMP. I sat on the public safety committee. I know that the RCMP needs to do better. Not even members in the RCMP are safe from the system itself, so I can only imagine for communities like indigenous communities, which are often victimized, how much they might be at risk when they're at the hands of the RCMP.

Why is it, do you think, that Canada has the status that it has around the world in terms of human rights violations when it comes to resource development?

I guess I'll ask the second question as well.

You mentioned Canada having the possibility of implementing policies that would help us to deal with that. Do you know of any countries around the world that do have stricter policies? If the U.S. is doing it better than we are, what exactly do they have in place to protect indigenous communities around the world? If you know of any countries that are doing better, what can we take from that?

[Dr. Pamela Palmater]

Thank you so much for your questions.

The first one, if I understand it, is relating to Canada's reputation worldwide and why it has that reputation.

There are a very significant set of factors here. The large number of entities that are engaged in the extractive industry worldwide are known as transnational corporations, so corporations that are instituted here in Canada but they also conduct work in other countries. When massive human rights violations happen, especially the killing of indigenous people and the gang rapes of indigenous people in other countries, and we try to bring Canada to account, Canada denies any ability to deal with it. They say, “Well, that crime happened in another country. We can't interfere with their sovereignty.” They sit back and don't take responsibility for it, despite the fact that they are Canadian companies. The Canadian companies basically say, “We're in Canada. You can't touch us.”

It leaves primarily indigenous women all around the world without too many options. We have human rights organizations that try to advocate on their behalf. Sometimes they might get settlements, but these settlements are almost always confidential. They're never published, so you don't have an accurate account of just how bad it is. All we know is from the individual evidence that we see on the ground.

It is Canada's failure to actually step up and take responsibility for what Canadians and Canadian companies do around the world that is fearful. Other people in other contexts think Canada is great, but when I go to other countries and I meet with indigenous women, they say, “You're from Canada. You know their companies are the worst; they commit the worst atrocities.” That's not something that Canada should be proud of, and it reflects how they've failed to deal with indigenous women here in Canada.

In terms of what they could do, there are a plethora of things.

The United Nations special rapporteur on violence against women visited Canada and talked to Canadian officials and indigenous women, and was shocked to hear about all of the violent sexual assaults by RCMP officers on indigenous women and little girls. They called on Canada to have a specific review or inquiry into that.

We asked the national inquiry.... We asked Canada to specifically include an investigation of RCMP and other officers in the extractive industry in the sexualized violence against indigenous women and girls, and those two things were specifically left out of the terms of reference. We have to stop economics from trumping human rights.

I think there are a lot of things we can do.

On a go-forward basis, no project happens until it can pass the bare minimum human rights standard that is now incorporated in UNDRIP. UNDRIP is the bare minimum human rights standard. That means that any project that has the risk of sexualized violence for indigenous women and girls does not go ahead unless there are guarantees of protections for these women in all of their forms: sexual exploitations, murders, disappearances, the use of their lands and resources, and failure to respect their rights.

Canada has financial levers. Even where Canada isn't the only authorizer of projects, it can say that a condition of our approval, on say, this multiprovincial project, is all of these guarantees that go to indigenous women and girls to protect them. It could do that. It chooses not to.

The provinces are like the wild west. They're literally a free-for-all. Canada has to step up and show leadership in this regard.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much.

There are a few things you said in there that I think will definitely help us in terms of recommendations as well, so thank you for being more specific on that.

You mentioned the UN, but are there any other countries you would point to that are doing a better job? What exactly are they doing? Have you looked into that at all?

[Dr. Pamela Palmater]

My research is on what's happening in other countries in terms of violence in the extractive industry.

We know that in the United States it's just as bad, if not worse. It's the same within Mexico. Anywhere where there are Canadian mining companies, that's what we've been tracking. We haven't looked at other countries. There are just so many countries, but it's following what the UN is trying to tell Canada and other countries to do around protecting women here and around the world.