Evidence of meeting #20 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shannon Davis-Ermuth  Senior Counsel and Team Lead, Criminal Law and Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Melissa Moor  Counsel, Judicial Affairs Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
Philippe Méla  Legislative Clerk
Claire Farid  Director and General Counsel, Family and Children’s Law Team, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

1:15 p.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

I would like some clarification from the officials. There is talk of electronic bracelets or of the imposition of conditions. Unless I am mistaken, this is already being done. The bill proposes to add the requirement "that the accused wear an electronic monitoring device, if the Attorney General makes the request." I want to make sure I understand that, because we are told that this is already being done.

I know that Ms. Gazan's intention is to try as much as possible to ensure that there is an Internet connection. When I read the proposed wording, however, I am afraid that it becomes a condition. In some cases, if it is known that the device will not work in a given area for lack of an Internet connection, will it still be recommended? I'm trying to figure out how that would apply.

As Ms. Damoff said, we are already working on the issue of the electronic bracelet. At least, that is the case in Quebec. I would like the officials to clarify this. It was clearly stated that implementation was the responsibility of Quebec and the provinces. Then, when we tried to find out what the federal government could do, we were told that enforcement was their responsibility. I am therefore trying to find out, once again, how this amendment could realistically be applied. I would especially like clarification on the conditions, because this is already being done. I want to make sure I understand.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Sorry, Shelby, I'm going to go back to the justice department officials.

I'm going to pass that back to you, Ms. Davis.

1:15 p.m.

Senior Counsel and Team Lead, Criminal Law and Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

Shannon Davis-Ermuth

Thank you very much for the question.

You're right that it's already possible to impose the wearing of an electronic bracelet as a condition. What the bill would do is require the judge to impose that condition in certain cases, such as when someone is accused of having committed a crime against their intimate partner.

When I answered the previous question, I hadn't specifically spoken to NDP-1 and what its effect would be.

It is true that it is not typical that a provincial Attorney General would be directed to do something in the Criminal Code. Looking at it from a legal perspective, it's possible that, as has been raised, this is not necessarily enforceable. It says that the Attorney General “must take all reasonable measures to ensure” something after the fact. That's after it would be imposed, basically.

As has been described, it's not necessarily a criterion that a justice must take into consideration, but already in the way that bail courts operate now, there are a number of provisions that require judges to consider the safety of witnesses. If a judge is imposing a condition for an electronic bracelet, it would be the normal course for them to look into the availability, the logistics, of it. Is it a jurisdiction where there's a funded program and where that province itself has a program to make it available?

Right now, in some of the provinces where they don't have programs, an electronic monitoring condition would probably be something that would be proposed by the accused person who has means to pay and doesn't want to be detained. They would say, “Look, you don't think I'm a good risk? I'll tell you what; I'll pay for this. Here are the details.” These are the types of details that judges would be considering and then, as has been mentioned, some of the other details in paragraph (b) are things that would fall under provincial jurisdiction in terms of ensuring safety and emergency services.

Another matter that the committee might want to consider, Madam Chair, is the way that paragraph (b) is written, “if the accused were to approach any place where any victim, witness or other person identified in an order made under subsection (2) might reasonably be found, emergency services would be available”.

Some possible concerns that arise sometimes in bail court are how you know where that victim might reasonably be found. Right now, the usual course with a condition like an electronic monitoring condition would be to prohibit an accused person from leaving a certain boundary, so they would make sure that there were sufficient services to cover the boundary that the accused person was supposed to be within, and the bracelet would provide an alert as to whether the accused person left that boundary, or they could probably program it to indicate if the accused attended at certain addresses.

One thing they need to consider when they're in a bail court is whether they want to identify the places where a victim might reasonably be found, because they might want to have places where they go that the accused person is not going to know about. Whether a condition like that would require a victim to share information that might better not be known to the accused is something they have to think about when they craft the conditions in a certain circumstance. Those are a couple of considerations for the committee with regard to that portion.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Excellent. Thank you so much, Shannon.

I always like to give Leah the last opportunity to speak since this is her response.

Are there any other questions? Are we all happy? I'm passing it to Leah for her final words on this.

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I actually have a question. We're talking about policing being a provincial jurisdiction, but that's not actually true on reserve or in certain areas where it's within the RCMP's jurisdiction. Does that fall outside of provincial jurisdiction, or would that be within provincial jurisdictions? For example, if the RCMP are policing on reserve, is that provincial or federal jurisdiction? I'm just wondering.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Let's discuss that.

Pam, you bring a lot to the table. Let's discuss it.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

The justice officials can probably correct me, but they would still.... Any charges related.... I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that if they were charges laid under the Criminal Code, that would be federal or provincial jurisdiction. They aren't separate.

Other than Akwesasne, which has its own courts to deal with offences—and I think those are mostly offences that are bylaw related, Leah—even if you're living on reserve, you're still coming under the criminal justice system of the Government of Canada or of the province where the reserve is located. Can the justice department officials confirm that?

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

I was going to say that. I think what Leah was asking...and I really appreciate what you came with, Pam.

Shannon, maybe you can comment on this. If we're looking at something that's happening on a reserve, where we know it's indigenous compared with where we have the OPP or the city police around, who has jurisdiction over that one section?

No, let's ask Leah. We're going to go to Leah, then Andréanne, and then we're going to come back to you, Shannon.

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Yes, particularly related to the policing piece—not the courts piece but the policing piece. Whose jurisdiction is that? Do you know what I mean?

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

It's still enforcing the laws from the Criminal Code and the bylaws that may have been passed. If we're talking about family violence and domestic violence, which is what was contemplated in this bill, they would be policing under the laws of the Government of Canada. The police would be responding based on Canada's laws when it relates to domestic violence and family violence.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

But they would be provincially regulated, operating—

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

If it went to court, it would be going to a provincial or a federal court—

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Right—that piece I understand. It's the policing piece that I don't.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

Yes, and it depends on the reserve who is responding. Even if it were the RCMP responding or if it were the NAN police service or Akwesasne police service—

1:25 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

That's tribal police.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON

It is, but they're enforcing Canada's laws, though, Leah, when it comes to violence.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

I'm going to take it to Shannon and then we're going to come back to Andréanne.

Shannon, on this policing thing, I know that it's not directly under Justice Canada, but perhaps you can give us a little insight from what you know. Then we're going to Andréanne.

1:25 p.m.

Senior Counsel and Team Lead, Criminal Law and Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice

Shannon Davis-Ermuth

Thank you very much.

My knowledge in this area is not complete. It's a very complex area.

One thing to begin with in terms of when we were talking about the not reserve area and whether RCMP...we know there are jurisdictions where the RCMP is providing policing services in provinces. There are provinces where the RCMP is under a contract with the province to provide services. Those policing services.... It's quite complex. Although the RCMP employees themselves have a federal employer, through providing contract policing services in those jurisdictions, they would also be bound by...they would be providing a provincial service.

In terms of reserves, there are different arrangements. It's not the same everywhere. In terms of how we're thinking about this for the purpose of the bill, as has been said, it's a federal law. Everything in the Criminal Code is a federal law that applies across the country. Where we're talking about the relevancy of provincial jurisdiction here in terms of what the motion is proposing, under the Constitution of Canada, as I'm sure you all know, there's a division of powers for different responsibilities. The criminal law is a federal responsibility, but the administration of criminal justice is a provincial responsibility, with provincial prosecutors, and the administration of justice for the criminal courts is within provincial jurisdiction.

The administration of the devices themselves falls under provincial jurisdiction—making them available, if that's something they choose to do, as well as monitoring their use and enforcement—as is the provision of emergency services, so that things that are being proposed to be written into the bill itself generally fall within provincial responsibility.

It's confusing with the Criminal Code, because there is overlap. That's why we call it a “shared responsibility”. It's not unusual that the Criminal Code would direct a police officer.... What's in the Criminal Code essentially might define police officers' powers in certain instances, but it's not typical that the Criminal Code would speak to the operational details of how their operations should be run.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Andréanne, you had your hand up.

Then, Leah, I will always give you the last word.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Okay, thank you.

We understand that, when it comes to implementing these provisions, there is no real connection with the Criminal Code.

Can we send the bill back and specify that certain aspects do not concern the federal government, but rather Quebec and the provinces? If so, what is the process?

I'm trying to see the feasibility of this, especially in this area. There's a real grey area between what we can recommend in the Criminal Code, what a judge can ask for, and the enforcement afterwards.

When we talk about coverage problems in certain regions, it really has to do with the implementation of the bracelet, and this very technical aspect is really a matter for Quebec and the provinces.

With regard to this aspect, then, can we send the bill back? If so, what is the process?

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

There was a discussion of the option of bringing forward a resolution. When we're discussing bringing that forward, we could bring forward all the other problems that we found in this bill that we have not addressed. That's another option.

Leah, you get the last word.

1:30 p.m.

NDP

Leah Gazan NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

I'd like to thank everybody for their feedback relating to the proposed amendment. I'm certainly not attached to it.

I'll go back to what Pam recommended at the beginning, in terms of not necessarily excluding it as an opportunity to discuss some of the gaps, particularly around cell service and accessibility. It's to ensure that the testimony that was provided is very well reflected in the bill or, even if it doesn't make it into the bill, that the discussions around the bill are reflected.

1:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

As the committee chair, I will make a note to ask the clerk to ensure that we do have these outside recommendations. When I report this back, we can point out that we recognized many outstanding factors that we need to bring forward. Then we can even put forward a clear resolution from our committee in time, for sure.

I would like to know is if this clause shall carry. This will be a recorded vote. Is that correct?

We're going to start with the question on the amendment from Leah Gazan.

(Amendment negatived: nays 10; yeas 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

At least we can laugh when we are doing such a serious bill. We can at least still find hope.

I'm going now to amendment LIB-1.

Ms. Sidhu, I'm passing you the floor.

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I won't read my amendment because I think everyone has it in front of them.

The rationale behind this, Madam Chair, is that I know that we will all agree that the bill's changes to bail practices are an important objective. At the same time, we need to ensure that the measures do not result in unintended negative consequences. Based on some of the testimony we heard, I'm concerned that [Technical difficulty—Editor] further than necessary and will result in the routine imposition of electronic monitoring as a condition of bail.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Karen Vecchio

Is there discussion on this amendment?

Andréanne.