Status of Women Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Good afternoon. I call this meeting to order.

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to take 30 seconds of folks' time. I want to give verbal notice of a motion. After I have given notice of the motion, there will be lots of time for people to see it, hear it and think about it. Hopefully, it will be discussed at a future meeting.

That the committee report to the House that in its opinion the government should:

(a) support the development of bystander awareness and intervention training, in collaboration with other levels of government, academia, and civil society organizations, as a key tool for combatting sexual harassment and violence, hate crimes, and other forms of criminal activity;

(b) support the provision of bystander awareness and intervention training to federal workers; and

(c) encourage all Canadians to avail themselves of opportunities to take bystander awareness and intervention training.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent. Thank you so much.

I know it's verbal, so it's very important that we get that in writing, as well, to ensure that Andréanne Larouche will have it—it is in. We will make sure that there is a French version coming around and circulated for you. I will ask the clerk to make sure you get that motion, so that everybody has it in writing.

Are there any other questions or comments?

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

Welcome to meeting number 34 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Tuesday, February 1, the committee will resume its study of the mental health of young women and girls.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. You'll see online that we have some of our members on here today, as well as some of our witnesses.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Please mute it when you are not speaking. You will find interpretation on the Zoom app at the bottom of the screen. It says floor, English or French. Choose the one that works best for you. For everybody in the room, you have these handy earpieces. You can choose your language from French, English or the floor. The volume control is there, as well.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking list as well as we can.

Before we welcome our witnesses, I would like to provide this trigger warning. This will be a difficult study. We will be discussing experiences related to mental health. This may be triggering to our viewers, members or staff with similar experiences. If you are feeling distressed or you need help, please advise our clerk.

I would now like to welcome all of our witnesses today. As I said, we have some here in front of us, as well as on Zoom.

From the Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity, I would like to welcome Debbie Owusu-Akyeeah, executive director. We also have Jaime Sadgrove, manager of communications and advocacy.

From the Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre, we have Brittany McMillan, who is the executive director. Beside her is Jordanne McLaren, who is the manager of the client services and human trafficking response team.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Chair, I just want to make sure that we're hearing the witnesses. Have the pre‑meeting sound checks been done?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Yes, they have.

It was done prior to the committee meeting starting, so everybody has had their earphones checked.

From La Maison Hébergement RSSM, we have Véronique Couture, who is the executive director. Welcome, Véronique.

From the MEHRIT Centre, online, we have Stuart Shanker, distinguished research professor emeritus of philosophy and psychology at York University.

We also have, from Women of the Métis Nation-Les Femmes Michif Otipemisiwak, Melanie Omeniho.

I'm going to provide each organization with five minutes for their opening statements. If there are two from that organization, those five minutes are combined.

I'm going to pass it over first to Debbie and Jaime at the Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity. Your five minutes start now.

[Debbie Owusu-Akyeeah, Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Gender and Sexual Diversity]

Hi, everyone. Thank you so much for inviting us today.

My name is Debbie Owusu-Akyeeah. I use she/her as pronouns. I'm the executive director of the CCGSD. Our organization is a national, youth-focused 2SLGBTQ+ organization headquartered here in Ottawa. We promote gender and sexual diversity in all its forms through the services of education and advocacy.

Our vision is a world without discrimination, especially for 2SLGBTQ+ youth, and to create a world where the human rights of 2SLGBTQ+ people would truly be respected. By recognizing the complexity of lives and experiences, our resources and our programming serve to empower marginalized queer, trans and indigenous youth and to provide the wider public with tools for building allyship with 2SLGBTQ+ communities.

As a leader in anti-oppression work, our goal is to promote healthy relationships and respect and dignity within and towards the 2SLGBTQ+ community. We specifically recognize that youth in our community have become disproportionately affected by bullying, violence and hate crimes in comparison with their cis heterosexual peers. We also recognize the effects that racism and colonialism have on queer Black, indigenous, and people of colour.

Our organization works specifically with queer and trans youth from urban and rural areas across Canada between the ages of 12 and 29. We mostly work within the middle school and high school context, as well as with young people who are marginalized due to many other forms of their identity.

From our evaluation work, we can safely say that a lot of the folks we work with also reflect a variety of different ages, gender identities, sexualities, abilities, races and ethnicities. I think what's key to mention is that about 60% of our participants happen to self-identify as female or as women or girls. Approximately 25% of the folks we work with are also racialized, Black or indigenous. We also work with folks—around 5% to 10% of our clients—who identify as trans or have trans lived experience. As well, about a fifth of the folks we work with note that they are living with a disability of some sort.

I mention all of this just to say that our work inherently addresses the mental health of diverse 2SLGBTQ+ young people, including young women and girls. It's important for us to look at the nuances of the experiences of young women and girls from the perspective of gender and sexual diversity.

In terms of what we do know, recently there was a study launched by Statistics Canada on bullying and victimization among young sexually and gender-diverse people in Canada. It shows that there are high levels of bullying against sexually and gender-diverse youth in Canada. That is having adverse effects on their mental health. These youth, who are more likely to be bullied, are also reporting high levels of suicidal ideation. They have a desire to skip school as a result. As to the levels of bullying they are dealing with, they are wide-ranging. They include being made fun of; name-calling; cyber-bullying, which speaks to the online hate that 2SLGBTQ+ people experience; being excluded from events; and rumours.

We know that the barriers and discrimination rooted in misogyny are only further compounded by that intersection of homophobia, biphobia and transphobia. It's also important to note that the bullying tactics we see among young people are highly gendered.

I want to note the report from our colleagues at Egale Canada entitled “Still in Every Class in Every School”. They look specifically at the context within school communities. Of the youth who were studied in the report, 11% of the cisgender and heterosexual respondents reported languishing mental health, as compared with 20% of those who are gay boys, bisexual boys or queer boys; 25% of the lesbian, gay and bisexual girls; and then 40% of the trans respondents. Conversely, cisgender lesbian, gay, bisexual and queer girls were more likely to experience some form of personal victimization through social media in comparison with their cisgender gay, bisexual and queer boy counterparts. This is happening of course online and in washrooms, change rooms and hallways. It's impacting their desire to participate in physical education, etc.

What's clear, and what I want to conclude with before we go to questions, is that there's a need for disaggregated data for this study.

We want to look at the specific impacts on the mental health challenges of young queer and trans girls and transfeminine people. There is a strong desire for Canadian context, especially with the increased amount of information coming from the States. We need to look at diversifying the data that speaks to transgender experiences and speaks to trans girls and transfeminine folks.

Lastly, we need to really focus on that knowledge mobilization piece so that educators and other adults know how best to address the needs of young queer and trans girls.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Perfect. Thank you so much.

I'm now going to pass the floor over to Brittany and Jordanne from the Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre.

Go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Brittany McMillan, Executive Director, Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre]

Thank you so much for inviting us today.

My name is Brittany McMillan. I'm the executive director at the Kawartha Sexual Assault Centre, which is one of the many sexual assault centres in Ontario. Our core funding comes from the provincial government through the Ministry of Children, Community and Social Services, also known as MCCSS. We're a small agency that receives just under $320,000 per year as our core funding model.

Jordanne is with me to help support with any questions that may be more clinical or client-specific. She is the manager of client services and also leads our human trafficking response team.

Today I will highlight the significant impact that sexual violence has on the mental health of women and girls. I will also discuss the need to mitigate such long-term mental health concerns for survivors and the need for more prevention and education in the field of sexual violence.

Women who have been sexually assaulted are more than twice as likely as male victims to develop post-traumatic stress disorder, with PTSD symptoms lasting up to four times longer than in males. According to the DSM-5, some of the highest rates of PTSD are found among survivors of rape, with rates ranging from one third to more than a half of rape survivors. PTSD is commonly associated with other mental health conditions, and is not the only mental health disorder that may develop after a sexual assault. Survivors may also develop conditions that include complex post-traumatic stress disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, major depressive disorder, eating disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorders and substance use disorders.

The risk for these related conditions may be greater for individuals who experienced a sexual assault at a younger age. Girls who were sexually abused in childhood are at an increased risk of being sexually assaulted as adolescents and adults, which further increases the risk of developing mental health disorders.

I want to note here that unfortunately we aren't funded to support people under the age of 16, leaving a huge gap in our services for young girls.

In 2021, approximately 19.24 million women were living in Canada. Across their lifetime, it is estimated that one in three women and girls will experience sexual violence at least once. We believe that because of low reporting, these statistics do not reflect the reality. This means that at least 6.41 million women and girls in Canada will experience sexual violence. It's also important to note that the population in our catchment area is about 320,000 people.

It is not just the numbers that are increasing. Many professionals in our field are anecdotally reporting that the intensity of sexual assaults is increasing, including an increase in physical injuries and strangulations. At the same time, it is important that we are clear that these numbers are not just due to the pandemic. The rates of sexual violence against women and girls have long been staggering.

We have a recommended action plan. Women who are believed and not blamed, and who are offered support and treatment after a sexual assault, are less likely to develop long-term mental health impacts. Therapy, support groups and self-help strategies can help survivors cope with and heal from PTSD and other mental health symptoms.

The sexual assault centres across the province of Ontario, and surely throughout Canada, are very much underfunded. If more core funding was invested into these agencies, survivors of sexual violence would get better access to supports in a timely manner, which would prevent many instances of long-term mental health struggles.

Prevention and education also need to be a priority. In Ontario, many sexual assault centres have taken this role on with minimal funding, as we know that the impact is so valuable. If we can get to the young boys and teach them the core foundations around the issues surrounding sexual violence, consent, toxic masculinity and the patriarchy, we will see the rates of sexual violence go down. We are currently prioritizing this training to hockey associations in order for Canada's sport to be a safer space for everyone. We also need to prioritize male allyship programming.

In conclusion, I just want to say that we're change-makers. We get into this field because we want to make changes. The unfortunate reality is that we can't do that as well as we can with the limited funding we currently receive as a core funding model.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

I'm going to pass it to Véronique Couture from La Maison Hébergement RSSM.

There are five minutes for you, Véronique.

[Véronique Couture, Executive Director, La Maison Hébergement RSSM]

Good afternoon, everyone.

My name is Véronique Couture, and I'm the executive director of a community organization, a transitional housing facility in Granby, Quebec.

We provide transitional services to people coming from a prison, hospital or detox centre. Our clientele is mixed but is mostly women at the moment.

Our needs have obviously increased considerably because of the pandemic and a lack of services over the past two and a half years. Our biggest problem is a lack of regular funding, which means we don't have enough staff in the house. We are funded by the Government of Quebec's support program for community organizations. However, we need funding from elsewhere to help us move forward and go further in the services we provide.

It's very complicated to apply for grants and to be accountable. We are left with very few resources. Case workers can't do their job because they have too much office work to do, and they have to deal with endless requests, so we recommend that the funding come to us more quickly.

Personally, I came here with a lot of candour, and I feel like I'm not as prepared as the people around me. However, my requests are very real and urgent: women and girls need mental health care and in different areas, so the funds need to come in quickly.

We talked about sexual assault earlier. Ninety per cent of our clients have been sexually abused as children or youth. So we need to help these people become empowered in a way that they never were before. We need education in schools. We need people who know how to care for Canadian girls and women and guide them to the right places at the right time.

I'm making a heartfelt plea: we need many more resources to help these women and girls.

In closing, I'd like to talk about something a little more personal, as I deal with this situation every day with my eldest daughter, who isn't able to get help. I can tell you that services are lacking, not only because of a lack of funding, but also because of a lack of awareness and understanding in schools and universities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much. I think you're going to find out we're all hearing the same thing, that there's just not enough. Thank you so much for being here.

We're going to turn it now online to Stuart Shanker.

Stuart, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Dr. Stuart Shanker, Distinguished Research Professor Emeritus, Philosophy and Psychology, York University, The MEHRIT Centre]

Thank you very much.

I can't help but feel that you must all be feeling a little bit overwhelmed by the absolutely frightening scope of the problems that we're facing with mental health of women and young girls today. I've been given the job of telling you—in five minutes—about an incredible neuroscientific revolution that we're going through. All I'm going to try to do is spark some curiosity, because this new understanding is giving us tools so that we can really reinforce all the messages that I've just heard, and that you've heard from your other witnesses.

I'm just going to talk about anxiety now, and essentially what we have learned, especially within the last three years. The numbers we're seeing are very difficult for us to tabulate. We know that it's far in excess of the 20% reported before the pandemic.

We know that anxiety is a warning system. It serves as a warning that the brain has detected an external threat, and that's not hard to figure out. We can certainly enumerate the threats that women are dealing with today. You just heard some very good examples.

It also serves as a warning system for internal threats, and that's what I'm going to talk about. An internal threat is something that's coming from very deep in the brain. It is coming from systems that lie beneath the threshold of awareness. Essentially what's happening is that these systems are in what's called homeostatic imbalance. Homeostatic imbalance produces things like depression, anxiety disorders, self-harm and so on.

There are three primary causes of these homeostatic imbalances.

The first one is simply excessive stress. Stress is a complicated issue, and I'll come back in one second to what a scientist means by stress. The second cause, and this is the big one during the pandemic, is maladaptive modes of dealing with that stress. Essentially, a maladaptive mode is something that gives you relief in the moment, but exacerbates the stress problem. The third cause is a lack of experiences that produce oxytocin. Oxytocin turns off the stress response.

What we see in all of the cases that you are hearing about are young women and girls who are in a state of being overstressed, something called “hypodopaminergic”. What does that mean? Stress is anything that requires the brain to burn energy to deal with that stress. It could be physical stress. It could be noise, crowds, too much light or not enough. It could be emotional stress. It could be cognitive stress. These are things that we talk about and explain.

The problem with excessive stress, such as we have seen over the course of the pandemic, is that it turns off dopamine. We need dopamine. These women need dopamine. Without it, when your dopamine levels are reduced, it causes withdrawal, as well as something called anhedonia. It causes lack of motivation—you can't go to school. It causes chronic anxiety and depression or dysthymia.

The question this raises for us is this: Given the unbelievable stresses that women and girls are under, what can we do to alleviate this? What can we do to put the brain in a state where it can benefit from the programs that you are hearing about? What we need is something that turns off the stress response.

I'll just explain this really quickly, because I can't keep track of five minutes. The problem that you have is that when there's a stressor, there are chemicals that go up to produce the energy to meet the stress. There's another set of chemicals that turn off the stress and get us back into balance. What we're seeing in anyone who is suffering from, let's say, anxiety disorder is that the two systems are out of whack, so what we have to figure out is how to get them back into balance. We can't do it by education. We can't do it—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We are quite a few seconds over the five minutes. I know there is a lot more in that brain that we need to get out of there, but I'm going to have to turn it over to the next witness, and then we'll be sure to get back to you for questions. Thank you so much, Dr. Shanker.

I'm now going to turn it over to our final panellist today. We have Melanie, from the Women of the Métis Nation.

Melanie, you have five minutes.

[Melanie Omeniho, President, Women of the Métis Nation - Les Femmes Michif Otipemisiwak]

Thank you for the opportunity for Les Femmes Michif Otipemisiwak to speak to the committee today on experiences of mental health for Métis women, girls, two-spirit and gender-diverse people.

I'm speaking to you from the unceded, unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people here in Ottawa, but I actually live in the Treaty 6 territory and the mother of the Métis land in Edmonton, Alberta.

Les Femmes Michif Otipemisiwak works to ensure that Métis women from across the motherland are safe, connected and empowered and have the capacity to create the conditions for healthy and vibrant communities throughout the Métis nation.

Métis women are the heart of the Métis nation, and we envision a world where they are able to live in safety and free from violence, enjoying the same standards of safety, security, justice, health and wellness afforded to others.

Compared to non-indigenous people in Canada, indigenous people experience mental health issues at disproportionate rates, often with greater severity of symptoms. Indigenous people, including survivors of the residential school systems and their descendants, experience higher rates of depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress, substance abuse and behaviours related to suicide.

Yesterday, we were reviewing some pre-COVID statistics from 2018 with our Métis Nation British Columbia governing committee on the state of mental health in Métis youth in British Columbia. In the study, 47% of female Métis youth reported that they were experiencing anxiety—and this is all pre-COVID—35% of Métis youth reported experiencing depression, and 31% of female Métis youth reported serious consideration of suicide.

These statistics are alarming, and given the impact of the pandemic on mental health, we anticipate that the same mental health issues for Métis youth have even increased and been further exacerbated. We know that long-term COVID research is being done as to the effects on the mental health of our people, and many of our people have suffered from COVID.

Especially in the context of MMIWG, Métis women, girls, two-spirit and gender-diverse people have experienced severe forms of abuse, trauma and personal violence. Call to action number 19 from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission called upon the government to close the gap in health outcomes between aboriginal and non-aboriginal communities, including suicide, mental health and addiction. The National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls also found a need for increased funding and support for holistic services and programming in areas including trauma, addictions, treatment, and mental health services.

It's important to note that for many indigenous people, mental and emotional well-being is also tied to social, cultural, spiritual, environmental and political well-being. Health is a holistic concept. It encompasses the well-being of ourselves, our families, our communities, and our nation. In this way, the mental health of our women, girls, and gender-diverse people is intimately interwoven and connected to the well-being of our families and our communities.

For Métis communities, the social determinants of health are not just social; they are political and historical. They are structural determinants of health. The impacts of colonialism, such as the intergenerational trauma of residential schools, the sixties scoop and other issues, have ripped people from their culture and the culture that presents our path to healing.

In working with Métis survivors of trauma, violence, abuse and neglect, we know that connection to culture and community strengthens opportunities for healing. Working with elders, spending time on the land, harvesting medicines, weaving and beading are all activities where culture itself becomes mental health care.

Understanding the importance of culture and identity is a necessary step in decolonizing mental health care. Beyond a pan-indigenous approach, incorporating Métis values such as kinship ties, faith, spirituality, storytelling and traditional knowledge in trauma-informed care is needed to truly support healing in our communities.

To this end, LFMO has developed “Weaving Miskotahâ”, with 62 calls to miskotahâ, which means “change” in our language. In this report, we identified the need for a Métis nation healing and wellness resources foundation, to provide immediate and long-term supports to women, survivors and families, as well as the need for system navigators to work with Métis women, girls and 2SLGBTQQIA people and their families, and—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Melanie, I'm going to have to cut you off. We've once again gone a little bit over, but we'll make sure we have lots of questions so that we can get to those, as well.

We'll now start our first round of questioning. Each questioner will get six minutes. I'm going to start with Michelle Ferreri.

Michelle, you have six minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is going to be, maybe, one of the greatest tests I've ever had. I'm going to try to interview Dr. Stuart Shanker. I am so excited. We have hours and hours to squeeze into six minutes. Dr. Shanker, I believe we can do this.

Dr. Shanker has personally transformed my life and my children's lives. I can tell you, with certainty, that this man knows exactly what we need to do on a child mental health level, as well as an adult mental health level. His research is proven and it works, but it is not a quick fix—nothing is.

Dr. Shanker, I truly believe that if we want to help our children, we have to help the people who deal with our children. Otherwise, we will just keep passing over our own stress—what you were talking about in much of your testimony.

One of the things you speak of is that calm begets calm. If the people who are supposed to care for our children.... This study we are looking at, particularly in FEWO, is about factors contributing to the mental health of our youth and young girls, and how we can help and support that. If calm begets calm, if the people who are supposed to be the calm are not calm and don't have the tools to learn, what impact will that have on our children? How do we get them to be calm?

[Dr. Stuart Shanker]

There are two really important points in what Michelle just said. The first one is that we do know, from studies we've done, that anyone who's working with children, teens and young adults today is extremely stressed. What we have found at all of the institutes we run is that we have to start off the first day dealing with their mental health needs, particularly as we work on something called self-regulation.

Michelle's second question is, why is that so important? The reason is this: One recent discovery in neuroscience is that we have a brain-to-brain connection with kids. It's a wireless connection. It goes from our limbic system to their limbic system. What the child hears is what our limbic system is feeling. If I am irritated, anxious, angry or hyper-aroused, that message is communicated to the kid. If I am calm, if I am myself regulated, that message is communicated to the kid. It's called the interbrain and it is truly a game-changer in our understanding of why it doesn't matter so much what we say, what words we use; it's the messages our brain is sending. It sends these through eye gaze, through tone of voice and so on.

Is that a good enough answer, Michelle?

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

It is. I know; I've watched it work. I understand. It changed my life, as I said.

We have $4.5 billion dedicated right now, under the Minister of Mental Health, that is supposed to be allocated to mental health.

Dr. Shanker, you have the framework, the research, the data in place of self-regulation to teach inside schools, to teach to teachers, to teach to coaches, to teach everyone who is dealing with our children, including all of our witnesses, to teach these frontline workers how to self-regulate. Of that $4.5 billion, if some of it were allocated to you for a framework that we need for a mental health strategy to help our people cope and have mental health wellness, would you be able to implement it?

[Dr. Stuart Shanker]

Again, it's a great question. What Michelle is pointing to is the fact that our numbers are so overwhelming that we need to be thinking in terms of a universal approach. That's why she's itemized things like schools, or any organizations or parenting groups.

What we have to do is develop methods that empower the child or empower the teen, methods for recognizing when they're overstressed, how to reduce that stress, how they can turn off that disparity I was talking about, the stress response, how they can experience calm, which is a forgotten thing these days, and finally, how they can restore it.

Can it be done? Yes, we've seen it can be done. Can you turn around a child's trajectory? You can change every single kid's trajectory, but to do it is a step-by-step process. They have to get back into homeostasis. They have to get back into that balanced brain state. Yes, we could teach this through our public resources. In fact, that's what we're doing right now, and it works.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

It certainly does, and I think frontline workers need your self-regulation as much as our children do because if we both don't have that, it's not going to work.

I would love it if you could touch on what I know you didn't get a chance to say in your testimony, what you need to do. We have about 40 seconds left.

Dr. Shanker, I'm going to give you the floor if you want to take it.

[Dr. Stuart Shanker]

If I was going to give you one single message, it would be this. I've done this now my entire adult life. I've seen thousands and thousands of kids. I have never seen a bad kid. There isn't such a thing. If a kid is overstressed, it's a warning sign for us. This kid needs help, and we have to give it. That's why you guys have met together in this committee.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

I couldn't agree more. There is no such thing as a bad child. Why do we see the behaviour, and why now? Words from my very good friend, Dr. Stuart Shanker....

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to pass it over to Emmanuella, who is online.

Emmanuella, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for the incredible testimony they are providing us with today.

Dr. Shanker, I will get back to you because I have a very strong interest in psychology, so I would like to hear more, but before I get to you, I would like to ask some of our other witnesses a couple of questions on the work they are doing and—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Emmanuella, I'm going to just say that I have messed up.

I just want everybody to know that both Jaime and Debbie must leave at the one-hour time, so if there are questions for them—I'm going to give your time back, Emmanuella—let's make sure we get them in this hour. I am so sorry that slipped my mind.

Go ahead, Emmanuella.