Status of Women Committee on May 1st, 2023

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Madame Chair.

I'd like to address the first question to Ms. Blaney.

Thank you very much for your testimony. We have heard many times about the large proportion of indigenous women and girls who are trafficked, but it's very useful for us to hear directly from you about what some of the solutions are.

Before we begin, I want to go back to the question that Ms. Ferreri asked about the term “human trafficking”. I think that what the witness said was that using a term that is in the criminal code for something that is.... We heard throughout our visits across the country a couple weeks ago that it's really a continuum between coercion and something that the sex workers do that is their choice and then the criminal act of trafficking, but there's a spectrum in-between. It's not always clear where one ends and where the other begins.

I wonder if you could comment on the terms and definitions that we use and the fact that many victims, as we heard even today, don't consider themselves trafficked. If you use that terminology, they don't see themselves in it.

Could you clarify that a little bit?

[Fay Blaney]

I don't see the big difference between the two, between being prostituted according to the PCEPA law and being trafficked, because that's the starting point of being trafficked into the sex trafficking industry. Women do get stuck there.

For indigenous women, we are really overrepresented. Most reports say that 50% of trafficked victims are indigenous women and girls. A lot needs to be done to address our marginalization so that we aren't so vulnerable—not just to address our marginalization, but also the attitudes of men who are the buyers. That's the big piece. The demand is what leads to trafficking and leads to prostitution.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you for mentioning that because, when we were in Nova Scotia, we heard from an organization that did a survey of survivors about who the johns were. Who were the people purchasing? They had a chart. It showed that 50% said that law enforcement were among the customers, and several others were faith leaders, political leaders—people who have authority—landlords and that sort of thing.

I'm wondering if you have some insight on that. I know that Ms. Quinn mentioned this in her testimony as well, particularly about the man camps that are up north. I wonder if you could both—I'll start with Ms. Blaney—comment on what we do to ensure that these men know the harms they're causing and that we stop that side of things.

Go ahead, Ms. Blaney.

[Fay Blaney]

The equality model, the Nordic model, is a good starting point to address the inequality of women. From an indigenous perspective, it's all of the measures in the Indian Act that have ensured our marginalization.

Our male leadership was very much complicit during the national inquiry. I looked up sexual assaults, for instance, and came up with nine cases. Bridget Perrier, who's very well known, came forward in Winnipeg and said that the chiefs' assemblies were their busiest days, and there were exploited children who were in prostitution.

Our spiritual leaders.... That one is really hard to speak to, but I do know that our spiritual leaders are complicit.

In Prince George here, we had the judge who was charged, and then there's the whole number of police officers who have been trying to cover this up for such a very long time.

I'm very much in favour of the equity model that was followed in the Nordic countries and how it addressed the status of women and the second-class citizenship that we experience as indigenous women.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

It is appalling to think that the very people who are supposed to protect these young girls and women are the ones perpetrating.

Thank you for that important testimony. I think we'll look at that model.

I would like to hear what Ms. Quinn would like to say about that particular piece, as well, because she did address that in her testimony.

[Kathleen Quinn]

Thank you.

It's been my privilege to facilitate the sex trade offender program for over 26 years. It's how I got involved—seeing the impact of the activities of men exploiting young girls and women on the streets of my core community in Edmonton.

I've worked with over 3,400 men. They come from all walks of life and all heritages and are of all ages. The average age is around 30 to 50, but we have had 18-year-olds to 80-year-olds. Fifty per cent are married.

I think we actually have a real challenge in helping men understand what healthy sexuality is, what mutuality in relationships is, what respect is, all of these things. Then it crosses over to the abuse of power.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Kathleen, I'm going to have to stop you there. We've gone a little bit over the time.

Perhaps we can get.... With regard to the information that you're providing, such as some of those statistics on data and on merit, all of those things are quite important.

I'm sure that Anita and I will come up with a suggestion for what we're going to ask you for some more information on, so thank you so much.

We'll move on to Andréanne Larouche.

Andréanne, you have six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

Ms. Blaney, it's interesting to hear about some lines of thought. It's also interesting to see that some recommendations may already exist, but aren't implemented.

You raised the issue from the Indigenous point of view, and mentioned several completed studies that led to recommendations. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada comes to mind, or the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls.

Which recommendations in these reports would you want to prioritize to make improvements in the human trafficking and sexual exploitation file? We know, as you so rightly said, that Indigenous women and girls are statistically overrepresented.

[Fay Blaney]

There's an awful lot in the MMIWG report that we can take to address indigenous women's inequality so that we aren't so vulnerable. I think the root cause of a lot of the horrible things that happen to us is our utter vulnerability—the levels of poverty and homelessness, the addictions and a whole variety of issues we face as indigenous women...so we are empowered to be regular citizens in this country.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

What recommendation would you make regarding the lack of culturally appropriate services you spoke of, Ms. Blaney? We know that language is also a factor. It's harder for a victim to get out of a crisis, for example, when she doesn't have access to services in her language and has to leave her environment to travel thousands of kilometres from home, without any resources or contacts, and without anyone around her to help her get out of it.

Was that what you wanted to talk about? Do you have any comments to add on it? You can also add details to your thoughts on the lack of culturally appropriate services.

[Fay Blaney]

I'll use the example of Rose Harbour here in Campbell River. It's a shelter. In the shelter, there are 52% indigenous women and zero indigenous women on staff and on the board. I note that, for Inuit women, as well, in Montreal.... When we were doing solidarity work with them, there were not enough indigenous women delivering these programs and services.

What would be even better is resourcing indigenous women's programs and services by and for ourselves, because we are the ones who know our experience. We would not be subjected to the systemic racism we experience within the programs and services we access.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

That's interesting, Ms. Blaney. You were talking about the unfortunate situation of Inuit women in Montreal. As a member of Parliament from Quebec, I am particularly concerned about their situation. We know there are pilot projects, including women-only shelters.

Do you consider this type of resource, adapted specifically to women, part of more culturally appropriate services? A woman experiencing homelessness mustn't necessarily be treated the same way as a man in the same situation, because of the many reasons you mentioned when talking about cultural differences.

Did you want to elaborate on that, Ms. Blaney?

If not, I see Ms. Quinn nodding. There's about one minute left and you could add your comments as well, Ms. Quinn, on the issue of culturally appropriate services. You could also tell us about some existing recommendations or lived experience that could help us come up with more lines of thought.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We have 20 seconds left.

Go ahead, Fay, followed by Kathleen.

[Fay Blaney]

Okay.

I know Pauktuutit received funding to develop transition houses, and I think that's pretty awesome. It's good news, but it's definitely not enough. There are large numbers of Inuit who are forced to come to the south. I think housing is a big issue, and cost of living is a huge issue.

I'll leave it at that and pass it on to Kathleen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Wait one second, Andréanne. What I'm going to do is allow them to continue to answer their questions, then I'll take your last slot out.

Go ahead, Kathleen.

[Kathleen Quinn]

Thank you.

I do agree with Ms. Blaney that there are not enough culturally appropriate resources and shelters. Calgary has the Awo Tann women's shelter, which is very powerful and supportive. Edmonton does not have an indigenous-led women's shelter.

I, personally, really advocate for having a shelter developed by indigenous women—survivors of abuse and violence—that is crafted in the ways they want it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We have a point of order on the floor.

Sonia.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, the bells are ringing,so if we can—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

The bells are ringing for a vote.

Since we have the panels here, we need to have unanimous consent so we can continue on, and then we can vote either from here or.... The vote is now at ten minutes after one instead, so can I get unanimous consent that everybody wants to remain here until one o'clock?

Everybody looks good. Okay.

Thank you so much, Sonia, for bringing that to our attention.

Kathleen, we'll give you another minute to continue.

[Kathleen Quinn]

If I may, I would like to address something different.

To prepare for this, I read the 2007 report by the status of women committee, called “Turning Outrage into Action”. I do think we're still at “outrage”. We need more concerted action across the country.

We do have, through the Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act, the tool that is needed for Canada to uphold its commitment as a signatory to the Palermo protocol. We signed on in 2002. Article 9 says we need to work to address the demand that fuels the exploitation, especially of girls and women. That is where we're falling down and that is where we can move into action.

I mentioned the sex trade offender program. It's one example. There are many.

The key thing that the men say at then end of the eight-hour alternative measures program is that they didn't know this. They didn't know what was really happening. They see sex sites advertising, so they think it's the norm and it's okay to do. They all say that this should be in the schools and that we should reach men before they get caught.

We also hear from those who've been struggling with suicide, suicidal ideations, sex addiction and all this. They want help. If we shift this to a men's mental health issue, that would be very important.

If we talk about the imbalance of power and who has the power when you pay for sex, that's really important to do. Is it acceptable to use your power over another person, especially in a vulnerable circumstance, as we heard from those news stories I read out?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent. Thank you so much.

I'm going to now pass it over to Lori.

Lori, you have six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannamiik, Uqaqtittiji. Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much to both of the witnesses. They were both very powerful and very important.

As an Inuk, as an indigenous woman, I definitely super appreciate your advocacy and the hard work you're doing to make sure we're continually improving our protections for indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people.

My first question will be for Fay Blaney.

Happy birthday, by the way.

[Fay Blaney]

Thank you.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I see that you had been interviewed for an article on December 21, 2016. You talked about indigenous women not reporting to law enforcement. You mentioned in that article the recent situation in Val-d'Or, Quebec, “where Crown prosecutors determined that despite 37 files of alleged police abuse, all of which were brought forth by indigenous women, not one of the six accused officers would be charged.”

I wonder if, since 2016, you have seen any changes or any improvements for women reporting against accused officers. What needs to change to make sure there's increased reporting to law enforcement, which is supposed to be there to protect indigenous women, girls and two-spirit people?

[Fay Blaney]

I think the police are way too resistant, and I would say the entire justice system is way too resistant to do any changing.

I'm reflecting back on the sexual violence report that LEAF put together in looking at how difficult it is, and Robyn Doolittle did an exposé on police responses to sexual violence. I think the entire system needs change in some way. What they're doing is not working, but they're very resistant to change.

As it exists now, it's not one of my first priorities to get survivors to go to the police and report anything, because they just aren't going to hear you anyway, much less address the crimes that are being perpetrated internally.

In Vancouver, our head of the sexual exploitation unit was charged with sexual violence against youth, and they closed ranks and claimed that it was an isolated incident. In my mind, it's yet another example of how resistant they are to address the issue.

I'm not confident that change will happen anytime soon. If they're refusing education or are reluctant to get education, I don't know what it's going to take to bring about change.