Status of Women Committee on May 1st, 2023

[Timea E. Nagy]

Absolutely.

What is the point of catching them if they're only going to get released? What do you tell the victim? Yes, please come to testify. Pour your guts out, be scared, be intimidated. Face your trafficker in court, who told you that if you do that you're going to be killed, only for the victim to watch this guy walk out on bail.

Literally, what's the point?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have one minute.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Okay. I'm going to address my next question to Linda and Jeanne.

Thank you for the work you do. It's very important.

I would say to you, based on the same questions that I asked Timea, do you think that we should implement a law where the assets seized from the perpetrators and users are put back into things like the safe houses for helping the victims?

[Linda MacDonald]

Yes, certainly. These should go back to the survivors, for sure. I do agree with that, yes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Do you agree with changing the law to make it tougher? These are children. These are our children. These are the people who, hopefully, are going to become adults and be productive citizens of this country. Why are the laws not changed to protect our children?

I don't feel that the sentencing.... To me, 10 years is not enough. It should be 25 years.

[Jeanne Sarson]

Absolutely. I agree.

I can give you an example of what happened in Nova Scotia for why the law and judges are not taking it seriously. There's the example of a mother whose 16-year-old was trafficked. When the mother was in court, listening to the conversation, they were calling her daughter a “sex worker” instead of a victim of human trafficking, so the misogyny creeps into the system. It's sexualized, and to think that a 16-year-old is called a “sex worker” when she was trafficked, in itself is, to me, violating the crime, and that's going on in a court of law.

The other thing, for us—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Jeanne, thanks very much. I'm going to have to go over to the next round. We're just trying to keep everything as equal as possible.

I'm going to pass it on, for the next six minutes, to Jenna Sudds.

Jenna, you have the floor.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for being here today and, of course, for the important work you do each and every day.

As you've heard, the committee has had the opportunity to visit various parts of the country. We have really been digging deep into how we can do more on this issue.

First, Ms. Sharifi, from my understanding, your organization had three prongs of work—the consulting piece, the training and the education. On the education piece, you referenced in particular programs in B.C. working with school boards. Your testimony really strikes a chord on the need to reach young people and educate young people. You're in B.C. in school boards. What are the barriers to expanding that more broadly across the country?

[Tiana Sharifi]

Interestingly enough, Ontario is the only province that has mandated this kind of education. B.C. has not. B.C. is actually very behind.

In order to even get into the schools, we've rebranded our programs. Anti-human trafficking education is healthy relationships education, consent education and cyber safety education; otherwise, the issue is not taken as seriously. We're within different school districts, and the ministry approves of our programs, but the understanding is that we deal with relationships and consent and cyber safety as a means to get the information about human trafficking and its root causes out there.

I strongly believe we need a countrywide emphasis on prevention education. If you want to deal with just human trafficking as it is as the issue, you're too late. I believe we have to mandate this education as young as elementary school in addressing the root causes to any form of exploitation.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Thank you for that. It certainly resonates, I think especially as you were stating on the impact of the pandemic in the digital age—kids, young girls, are on these platforms, as you've mentioned, at a younger and younger age—and ensuring that they understand, which is very difficult, the risks of being lured in.

As you go into the schools, around that social media piece what methods are you using, or how are you reaching those young people so that it's actually resonating? I think that needs to be, as you've said, replicated across the country.

[Tiana Sharifi]

What we try to do is take a lighthearted approach. If you come into a school just trying to create fear and shame, it won't hit the kids as effectively as games and activities and humour would. We really approach it from a very lighthearted perspective. As well, in that sense, schools are much more accepting of bringing us in.

When we educate, and I think this is also important, many victims of human trafficking do not define themselves by that definition. When it comes to minors, most of the victims of sexual exploitation don't identify as being exploited, so the language we use is very different. We don't say “predators”, because to them, whoever they're talking to is not a predator. It's a “friend” or a “follower”. We don't use the language that they're being “human trafficked”, for example, or “the five warning signs of a pimp”, because they don't identify with that. We talk about “relationships that might lead to exploitation”.

We come from a space of empowering them and giving them agency where if you're going to be online.... It's not to say don't speak to anybody, or don't do this and don't do that. That's not as practical. Instead, we provide them with tools—for example, these are the things you should watch out for that could lead to an exploitative relationship or an unhealthy friend or follower. I think that language is very important.

Again, it's about addressing those root causes and making them aware of the vulnerabilities they have; aware of the personal needs they're lacking that they're trying to get met, whether in person or digitally; and aware of the healthy alternatives.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

I think you can then contrast that with the messaging that's necessary to go to parents. I think that's very different.

[Tiana Sharifi]

Yes. Absolutely.

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

What does that look like? How do we reach the parents of these young people?

[Tiana Sharifi]

As a parent myself, I think the worst thing we can do is overburden other parents with a sense of responsibility that is not practical. I know this is not the standard approach, but I believe that telling parents they should absolutely have 100% wherewithal of what their children and youth are doing online, for example, is not practical. It's overwhelming. Parents don't know how to do that.

Instead, what we do with parents—and I think this is really important for any kind of adult education—is ask, “What are those communicative tools, so that you can have open conversations with your children and youth?” Instead of knowing absolutely every platform that's out there and all the risks of every platform that's out there, talk to your kids about what platforms they are on. What are they interested in?

I'm sorry. I could go on for hours. Again, we just have to make it more relatable and ground-roots.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I'm sorry. It always happens, but I was waiting for you.

Thank you so much.

We're now going to pass it on. I want to make sure that you have translation, if you don't speak both French and English.

I'm going to pass it over to Andréanne Larouche.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Ms. Sharifi, Ms. MacDonald and Ms. Sarson, thank you for being with us today. Your testimony was gripping, and it underscores the seriousness of human trafficking of women, which should not exist anymore in 2023. Women are being treated horrifically.

Good morning, Ms. Nagy.

We met in Winnipeg. I remember our discussions. They helped me see the problem of human trafficking in a whole new light. The two days we spent at the Canadian Human Rights Museum at the beginning of April were very interesting.

What has stayed with you from the discussions we had with all kinds of participants with a stake in this issue?

[Timea E. Nagy]

I left that conference feeling extremely discouraged.

As such, I made a personal decision to leave this space, as a survival advocate, in about a year. The reason I did that is I cannot believe that after 15 or 20 years, we are sitting at the human rights museum and still only talking about the problem, instead of starting to talk about solutions.

I was so discouraged by that conference. When I saw corporations and large organizations spending their time, effort and energy sitting in for a two-day conference, talking about the problem they've been talking about for years, that's how I felt.

That conference led me to a personal decision to leave the space after 15 years.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Nagy, the discussions were rewarding, but I came to the same conclusion as you. Unfortunately, things are not moving fast enough. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

You brought up the issue of national strategies, and I would like to talk more about that. We've been talking about national strategies for over 15 years already, as you said. A first plan was proposed, followed by another national strategy. In short, the national strategies and reports add up, but very little changes.

What progress would you like to see? Why are these national strategies piling up and being pushed aside? Why aren't things changing?

It's clear that those types of crimes are on the rise.

[Timea E. Nagy]

Thank you. I love your questions.

There are several reasons. Governments are coming and going, and different governments have different priorities. Unfortunately, human trafficking is just another political issue. Different governments have different perspectives on this issue. The Liberals have a different view of this issue, the NDP have a different view of this issue, and the Conservatives do. The truth is that it should not be a political thing; it's not a political issue. It's not a cause that you need to pick up just before elections to get elected or push it away so that you can get more votes.

The numbers are speaking for themselves. The research is the same today as it was 15 years ago. I'm so sorry, but I didn't catch the name of the lady who was talking about the education. I loved her point of saying that it's too late now. It's too late. We said 15 years ago what would happen in 10 years if we didn't do this. We had approximately 5,000 victims 10 or 15 years ago, and now we are estimating there are 50,000.

What needs to be done? We need a comprehensive national effort. We need to put in the work and we need to put in the funding. We need to make investments in systematic changes by investing in organizations that are offering prevention and providing national prevention—a real investment in preventing this. At the same time we need to put investment into those who have already been victimized and help them to reintegrate back into society. We need to stop the Ping-Pong reaction where we just throw money right, left and centre, and there's no coordination whatsoever.

We have answers. We know what we need to do. We just need to start doing the work. There are regions, like Peel Region, that have done phenomenal work. We have best practices left, right and centre. We just need to actually take this seriously—just like all of the other presenters have said earlier.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

So you would say, Ms. Nagy, that there is a lack of political will.

There is also the whole issue of coordination. The problem of human trafficking involves several departments, such as Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, Public Safety Canada and the Department of Justice. As you said, detection is one thing, but helping the victims is another. We also need to do a better job of identifying the number of victims and helping them get through this.

Not only do we need to think about prevention and how to help, but also about detection.

[Timea E. Nagy]

Yes, absolutely.

There is a way to do it. You can create a national coordination centre that would be funded by all of the ministries that you just mentioned and actually start the work. It's literally as simple as that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thanks so much, Timea.

We're now going online. We have Lori.

Lori, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Qujannaamiik, Uqaqtittiji.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses. It's my privilege to sit here with you today. My colleague, MP Leah Gazan, wasn't able to attend. I do appreciate the testimony by all of the witnesses and the incredible work you're all doing to help make sure that women and girls are safe.

I will be directing all of my questions to Ms. Timea Nagy. I'm very impressed by your statements and the work you're doing.

I understand your call for a national investment in national systemic changes and ensuring that we have better services for victims. I wonder if you could give a bit more information on what services should be available to survivors to support them in their reintegration process.