Status of Women Committee on May 4th, 2023

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you. I appreciate your being here, your responses and the work that you do in this area.

Statistics Canada, I would like to ask you a question. I'm not sure if you have any stats with you about sentencing and about how long sentences are for people who have been accused, tried and found guilty of sex trafficking. Quite a few of our witnesses have talked about the fact that they're not long enough. I also know there's a range: The maximum sentence is a life sentence, and then there is a minimum sentence.

I'm wondering what if could tell me about that.

[Kathy AuCoin, Chief of Analysis Unit, Canadian Centre for Justice and Community Safety Statistics, Statistics Canada]

That's a great question. I don't have those numbers right in front of me. However, what we know from the data is that a lot of the police-reported human trafficking incidents never even make it to court to start with. They are very complex and difficult to prosecute. Of those that make it, only very few get a finding of being guilty.

What we can do is find out what the sentencing outcomes are. However, from a bigger picture, very few make it to court and very few get a sentence of being guilty.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you. That's obviously a problem in itself.

[Kathy AuCoin]

It is, very much so.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

For the stats that you do have on that within your department, could you send those to the committee so that we have access to them?

[Kathy AuCoin]

Yes, I definitely will. Thank you.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have 45 seconds.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I don't think there's much I can ask in 45 seconds to get a good enough response. I want to thank you guys.

I'll cede the rest of my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to pass it over to Andréanne, who will probably say, “Let me take that time.”

Andréanne, go ahead. You have two and a half minutes. It's a good thing.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today to talk about this important issue.

Ultimately, we're realizing that we have few statistics available. Furthermore, we just heard that we sometimes get the impression of seeing just the tip of the iceberg, because people often find it difficult to file a report.

I'd also like to remind the committee that the witnesses we've welcomed over the last weeks, including federal department officials charged with fighting the trafficking of women and girls—we see that there's a lot—told us that we have very few numbers available on the current situation. That's what Ms. Leonard just told us as well.

The situation is worrisome. Many policies to end human trafficking were implemented as part of the National Strategy to Combat Human Trafficking 2019-2024. However, it's difficult to know if the strategy produced results, due to the lack of statistics, tools and processes for follow-up and assessments.

Ms. Léonard, I'd like to hear what you have to say on the difficulty of collecting data.

[Lucie Léonard]

As we said, as national statistical officers, we work mainly with police services to get data on human trafficking. We already talked about the lack of systems, standards and means of sharing information to ensure follow-up on those cases and retrace victims' locations.

We've already committed to getting some work done, particularly through telephone help services. However, what we want is to work for better standardization. It could be done by working with the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and setting up mechanisms for better information gathering on people involved in human trafficking.

Along those lines, the committee is aware that creating a national database might be necessary. We're not especially interested in police investigation activities as such, but rather in standardization, which is more relevant to our role. We need to work with police services, which we're already doing.

For example, we participate in the work on missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. We play a role in the National Strategy to Combat Human Trafficking 2019-2024.

In 2021, we announced that we would work with the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police to create a database. It would improve standards and protocols, as well as police systems and information. All of it will help create a database that provides better information on the problem of human trafficking, while improving police investigations through better protocols and information systems.

That's the work we are committed to and want to continue on the issue of human trafficking.

Ms. AuCoin, did you want to add anything?

[Kathy AuCoin]

I would like to just add that the big concern is victims who never report to the police. Their first step is seeing a victim services agency. Those people are the first stop, the front line. From a victim-centred approach and a trauma-enhanced approach, they want to meet the needs of the victim, and that's not reporting to the police, so that's a data point we don't have.

We've worked with victim services in the past. They are underfunded. They would love to collect data, but they don't have those resources.

If you want to really have a full understanding of the magnitude and the number of victims of human trafficking, it's with the frontline workers in victim services. However, their money is always going to finding shelter and supporting the needs of the victims. They are not data collectors.

There's always that balancing act that we have to consider.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

That's interesting, because you mentioned Indigenous women and girls. I remind everyone that tomorrow is May 5, which marks Red Dress Day. It's a day when we can collectively reflect on the reasons why, in 2023, Indigenous women and girls are disproportionately affected by the various things we about at committee. That includes resource exploitation, sexual exploitation or domestic violence. So, tomorrow, let's take the time to reflect on it all.

Another thing I find worrisome is the issue of trust in the system. Victims should not be afraid of reprisals or being victimized again. They should be able to believe that they really will be helped. As you said, from 2011 to 2021, 54% of human trafficking cases reported to police weren't solved, meaning the police didn't identify an alleged perpetrator. In comparison, just over one third, or 35%, of cases of general violence weren't solved. That means there are many more unsolved cases when it comes to human trafficking.

How do we explain the difference? Why is it so difficult to identify perpetrators of these crimes? What should we implement to better identify them?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

We're right at the six-minute point. I'm going to add a little bit of extra time to the next round for Andréanne, so we'll pick up some of that time.

I'm now going to pass it over to Lindsay. Lindsay, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you again to the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Walker, I'm very excited. I'll see you actually in person, I think, next week. I represent London—Fanshawe. Your organization, the Women's Trucking Federation, is coming to London.

I am hoping you can maybe talk about the hubs. We've been discussing the hubs and the increase we've seen in terms of the stats coming out of Ontario. Madam Chair, you will well know that London itself is becoming a hub in terms of that Highway 401 corridor.

I am hoping, Ms. Walker, you can talk specifically about that and about what you're seeing in terms of those trends along that corridor.

[Shelley Walker]

We are seeing an uptick in the actual truck stops themselves. When we talk with different victim service agencies as well as local police, they are telling us that the increase in human trafficking in the London area is quite high.

We reached out to one of our corporate members. We asked him about wrapping a 53-foot trailer that will spread the human trafficking message. On the side of the trailer there is an image. It has the 1-800 number for the Canadian Centre to End Human Trafficking. It also has a link to the No Human Trafficking website. That is currently being updated all the time with new resources and services for survivors.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

I'm very happy to see you all. I know that Ms. Tallon Franklin was supposed to be here with us today. She and her organization, Courage for Freedom, have started really focusing on a lot of those ONroutes, those service centres along Highway 401, in terms of trying to educate the workers at those centres and of course the people who are travelling who are using ONroutes. Certainly your organization, the people who are in your group, use those quite a lot.

Could you talk about whether you are working together with those organizations? What are you seeing coming out of the efforts? Are you joining efforts on that front?

[Shelley Walker]

We are working with a lot of different agencies. Unfortunately, I don't do a lot of stuff with Kelly. We've had a couple of conversations, but we don't always seem to hook up at the right time.

I think we all have been targeting ONroute centres in terms of doing more in the human trafficking sphere, but in one conversation we had, we were told, “Oh, we can't put anything up in here about that; it will scare our customers away.”

That's an issue—making businesses aware that they do have responsibility to everyone. That includes every person who comes into their space. I think if we monitor the type of signage or posters that are put up or the videos that are up there so that we don't do anything that's going to be traumatic to anyone or set up a trauma trigger, we can do a lot more in those areas. It's kind of like #NotInMyCity now at the airports and the signage that is up. I think more public spaces that have the traffic flow coming in and out of them should be doing something.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In terms of supports from government in relation to some of these programs that you both run yourselves and that you've seen being effective, where are the major holes you see, both provincially and federally, as we're discussing what the federal government can do today?

[Shelley Walker]

Everything boils down to funding. That's what I'd like to say.

I talk to a lot of different organizations, whether they're in the trucking industry or are the human trafficking groups, and I'm constantly hearing the same thing: that the funding is never enough. Either they run out of funding or it seems that the same organizations are constantly getting funding while the other ones, those that have so much knowledge and experience, are totally getting left out in the cold. Take Timea Nagy, for instance, who in all of her years of being in operation has never once received government funding.

If you've ever sat down and looked at what the government asks of somebody, of an organization, to fill out on a government proposal just to apply for funding, it's mind-boggling. It really is. I think we need to do something to cut the red tape, change how the grant systems and funding programs are run and bring it down to a little more...I like to say “bring it back to reality”.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Certainly when I was last on this committee, there were a lot of conversations about the difference between funding for programs and then core operational funding, the long-term funding that allows these organizations to service not just one specific program with a specific target. Then they have the opportunity to look into the long term and plan many years into the future.

That would go for women's shelters and programs that are working against violence against women. Would you agree with that overall?

[Shelley Walker]

Yes, I really think that needs to be done. I think it needs to be broken up a little.

I can tell you that we fund everything we do in the human trafficking sphere ourselves. The very first trailer that was wrapped and put on the road I paid for out of my own pocket, because I believed that the trailer would make a difference.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

I'm now going to start our second round of five minutes, five minutes, two and a half minutes and two and a half minutes with Anna Roberts.

Anna, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to go back to something you said earlier, Ms. Walker.

In reading Timea's book, one of the things I was quite surprised by is that she has helped over 300 victims. In the book, she mentions working with the Peel police, who we were very fortunate to visit during our time on our tour. It's a very successful program. She says in her book—and this might be something that we need to use for our truckers—that she always carries what she calls a “safe bag”; I think that's how she refers to it, but don't quote me on it.

When she meets with these victims, she doesn't start asking questions right away because of the fact that she was a victim herself. She brings a care package so that the victims are not revictimized. She'll bring them hand cream. She'll bring them a toothbrush. She'll bring them.... These are essentials for them to use and that they may not have had for a while. In sharing some of her experiences, she is building their confidence.

Would you say with regard to the training for truckers that this would be helpful for them to understand?