Status of Women Committee on May 15th, 2023

[Kate Price]

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't want to speak on behalf of anyone else on the call, but I heard similar thoughts from them as well.

Often, the way we define or perceive trafficking is wildly inaccurate compared to what we're seeing on the front lines. Certainly, what sex workers who are doing consensual sex work have communicated is vastly different from the clients we're working with who've experienced sexual exploitation.

I would agree, or would fairly confidently confirm, that rarely do we understand the true definition of “trafficking” and what it looks like.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Wu, you stated that victims fear the police more than their predators. That's a significant statement, and it's not very reassuring.

Could you tell us a little more about it?

[Angela Wu]

Again, repeatedly the women we support at SWAN tell us that they actually fear the police more than they fear predators. This is due to the IRPR provisions that prohibit sex work. They are not able to access justice as freely as the rest of us can because they live in fear of being arrested, detained and deported if they are found to be engaging in sex work as temporary residents in Canada.

That being said, I think this is actually quite a common feeling among sex workers. Ultimately, sex work is criminalized in Canada, and—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Perfect. I'm going to switch it over to Anita Vandenbeld. She has the next six minutes.

Anita, you have the floor for six.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much to all of you for being here. I have a question for the four of you, but before I do that, I want to pick up on something that you said, Ms. Stone. One thing we've looked at in this study is data and how difficult it is to get accurate data, which then can inform policy decisions and evidence.

You put forward an even greater difficulty when you talked about the fact that, by including so many types of violence under the label of human trafficking, we're not actually able to capture the data of what is really happening there. I wonder if you can elaborate a little bit on that and what we may be able to do about it.

[Jessica Stone]

Of course. Thank you so much for your question. Yes, it's definitely a matter of recognizing the data gaps, especially as they exist in rural and remote northern regions such as the Yukon.

You know, I think most importantly we need to invest in funding that is community-driven. To do this, we need to provide core funding and long-term funding to non-profit organizations. This can support developing their capacity, which in turn enables them to strengthen their policies, procedures and data collection practices.

With this funding in place to develop capacity in data collection, storage and analysis, especially for those in the north, non-profit organizations will be able to generate more reliable data. As we know, that trust that exists between non-profits is often quite different from what exists between larger stakeholders that are typically doing data collection, such as governments or other formalized institutions.

With this reliable data that can be generated if we provide that capacity building to non-profits, we'll then have a clearer picture of what's going on. That can better inform services, policies and practices that meet the needs and represent the needs of the community.

Again I would just reiterate that we need to provide funding to those institutions outside of those large institutional stakeholders so that the data collected can be more accurately representative of communities, and then we can get a clearer picture of what our response needs to look like.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you so much. It's a very good recommendation.

I have a question for the four of you, maybe in the order that you spoke. We've heard from other witnesses, and particularly today, about the need to have a survivor-focused frame to look at this. I've heard words like “autonomy”, “agency” and “empowerment”.

Ms. Price, you used the term “human rights”—talking about this as a human rights issue, as opposed to some of the things we hear about victims and colonial frames that have been mentioned a few times.

Ms. Price and Ms. Wu, you both talked about stigma, both in terms of how we view those who are facing exploitation but also, after they try to leave, the stigma they might face in society.

I know it's a big question, but could I ask each of you to comment for 30 seconds on what we can do to make sure that, when we make our recommendations, we are looking at it through the survivors' eyes and not through the stigmas and misperceptions society may have?

I'll start with you, Ms. Price.

[Kate Price]

That's a big one for 30 seconds.

I believe someone else used the word “infantilizing”. I think that's a really accurate term for something that immediately disempowers someone who has agency and autonomy and is a whole person who has gone through something terrible. I think that infantilizing survivors is adding to the stigma. It's just someone who had an experience that was terrible. They need supports, and that crime has to be addressed.

The individual is not a broken thing. They are a fully empowered person who can determine what they need and what their care plan should be, with the support of other professionals. I believe that would support the reduction of stigma.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Ms. Kim, go ahead.

[Rosel Kim]

Thank you.

I would add that I think we need solutions that support and don't punish the people coming forward. Giving a survivor agency means providing them with options, providing them with time to choose an option that works for them and making sure that option doesn't lead them to any kind of additional punitive measures, such as being stuck in a system where they might have to identify as something they don't want to—a victim. Rather, they are able to get the support they need on their own terms.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Go ahead, Ms. Wu.

[Angela Wu]

I would add that this goes back to the idea that “human trafficking” is used as a term to label so many different things. The women we support face a spectrum of exploitation on which trafficking might be the most extreme.... When they are seeking help and being asked, “Are you a victim of trafficking?”, they're not able to answer that. If they do, in our experience, and they answer honestly that they chose to do this work but are facing exploitation, they are often disregarded as no longer a victim. That often leads to punitive measures against them.

I think stigma runs through the language we use and the framework we use. The human trafficking framework isolates and eliminates certain people from accessing supports. I agree with Ms. Price about using a human rights approach. It's much more effective than a human-trafficking framework.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thanks very much. We're past our six minutes by a few seconds already.

I'm going to pass it over to Andréanne Larouche.

Andréanne, you have six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses who are joining us virtually. I will certainly have the opportunity to ask them questions, but I'll start with you, Ms. Price, as you are here with us. Thank you very much for coming.

All the testimony has been fascinating today. We've heard different points of view, but that presents us with facets about which we've perhaps heard less here on the committee. I'm thinking in particular of your answer to a question Ms. Vandenbeld asked a little earlier about stigma.

You didn't have time to talk a lot about that. This is the first time I've ever heard so much about the sensationalistic way people talk about human trafficking, in advertising or in the news. That causes a distortion between the numbers we have and the reality you're seeing in Alberta.

I'd like more clarification on that. I'll give you the opportunity to go a little further and complete your answer to Ms. Vandenbeld's question.

[Kate Price]

I think there is always going to be a divide between the statistical data, which—as many folks have mentioned today—is, unfortunately, deeply flawed. There's going to be a gap between the statistical data and the lived experience and testimony of survivors. The stigma folks are experiencing when they're trying to communicate that something has happened to them and they've been exploited in different ways.... There is stigma culturally, but there's also stigma because there are literal punitive impacts, like being highly at risk of deportation from just wanting to report their abuser or from entering the system in any way.

When we talk about stigma.... Yes, there is a significant cultural stigma—specifically around sexual exploitation, consensual sex work and sex trafficking—that is very much ingrained in Canadian society. However, there's also stigma towards folks who have experienced labour trafficking, where people think, “Why couldn't they just leave?” That stigma is a question that I suspect many folks have brought up to this panel—the “why didn't they just leave?” question. The fact that this question is still coming up suggests the widespread presence of stigma.

Thank you very much.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Yes, it does answer my question. We can come back to it anyway, because I'm going to continue along the same lines.

Some witnesses have told us that the victims, the survivors, were afraid to report it to the police because they believed that was dangerous—it goes as far as that. They fear being blamed or humiliated. That's more or less what you're talking about, stigmatization.

About 80% of human trafficking cases are not reported to law enforcement. Some survivors have also expressed concerns about the police being able to get them out of human trafficking situations, due to travel across jurisdictions and possible internal bias. They are worried about being judged when they ask for help, and they are worried about their safety and even the safety of their loved ones.

How does this lack of trust in the system undermine assistance to victims of trafficking and the way they are dealt with?

[Kate Price]

I want to start by saying that I know that law enforcement are coming from a good place and they're trying to do the best job they can. It's a flawed system.

When we talk about creating anti-trafficking training, it has to also include nuanced training for law enforcement to understand the difference between consensual sex work and sex trafficking and to understand a trauma-informed response—that is, how to talk to someone who has experienced extreme trauma and is currently in crisis. Without that level of training I think most frontline agencies...and it's certainly something we have experienced at ACT Alberta. We do our best to screen the law enforcement agents who we know will be engaging with survivors. We're fortunate enough to have incredible partners whom we trust, but we screen them because trauma-informed care isn't part of the RCMP's mandatory training, to my knowledge.

There is a cultural response that is an element of it. The other side of it is the fact that the systems and laws in place, and the way that we handle people with precarious status in Canada, is such that speaking to law enforcement may risk further trauma out of the gate. They may literally be deported before they can even access any services.

There are multiple things that I think many folks on this panel have covered. Ms. Stone brought up some great points about legalities and the legal structure. I'm sorry; that was Ms. Kim. We have to look at the cultural practices and the training but also the larger legal structures that have an immediate effect on folks seeking support.

I'm not sure if I completely answered your question. Did I?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

All right, Madam Chair.

Yes, that answers my question, Ms. Price.

There's also the issue of trust, the word that comes to mind. Victims must be able to trust in the fact that we have laws in place and that all stakeholders are working effectively together. They must also be able to trust that we rely on data based on science, not on stereotypes or preconceived notions. That's more or less what I understand.

What are your comments on this?

[Kate Price]

I would encourage digging down on how we're defining “trafficking” culturally with training but also in the law, and being very specific about how those terms are used. It will help the data quality if we're able to better articulate what trafficking is and is not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Leah, you have six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for coming today. It's been very interesting.

Madam Wu, I liked that you were speaking about looking at things through a human rights framework. You spoke about repealing the IRPR, and I've been saying for a long time that when you make somebody illegal you place them in danger. One of the things that has been suggested is, for example, if somebody is involved in a sex trafficking case, the first thing that happens is that they get permanent residency so there is no fear of deportation. I am a big proponent for status for all, but that certainly has been one of the recommendations that has been given to the committee.

This is my question actually. How does keeping in place the IRPR infringe on the human rights of migrant sex workers and also others who may be sex-trafficked?

[Angela Wu]

Essentially the IRPR prohibition on sex work makes it impossible for migrants to Canada to choose freely what occupation they do. When they choose to work in the sex industry, they automatically are placed at risk of arrest, detention and deportation. We have actually seen that happen several times with the women we support.

Often they come to the attention of the police because they have decided that they want to report violence or exploitation. Unfortunately, almost every single time we have seen the women actually end up getting deported. It's really a backwards regulation, because I believe the provision was added to the IRPR to address trafficking. It was a deliverable, I believe, with the national action plan from a few years ago. Somehow, it was considered to be a way to address trafficking, but what we have seen is that, in fact, it actually pushes migrant sex workers deeper into the shadows and it limits their access to justice.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

In saying that, going back to policing, I would argue that there are piles of systemic racism in policing, certainly as it relates to Black and indigenous people and people of colour. I know in the indigenous community it's a very contentious relationship, certainly in the city of Winnipeg. Another report came out calling out the racism of the Winnipeg city police around the landfills and how blatantly racist that was. That was just this weekend.

In what ways do you think the federal government can support improvements in the reporting process? Is the system so flawed with systemic racism that we need to look at other avenues for reporting outside of the police to ensure the protection of sex workers and individuals being sex-trafficked?

[Angela Wu]

I think the big picture piece for this question is that we currently have laws that criminalize sex work, so how do people who are facing exploitation in the sex industry—which is what I understand this committee's main concern is—access justice when the police are actually meant to enforce these laws? They don't really have access to justice.

I heard in a different session that someone said that they know some police don't actually enforce the laws. They know when it's consensual sex work and they leave it alone. The reality is that sex work is criminalized. Just because some police might say they're not going to enforce this law doesn't really change how these women live their lives and operate. They still have to operate within the shadows as long as sex work is criminalized.

I think—