Status of Women Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[Clare Barnett]

There was a federal program called My Main Street, and I believe it was through FedDev. We had six business ambassadors across the city, and they would go door to door to speak to businesses in their community, really getting to know their businesses and getting to know the entrepreneurs personally. What we found was that women entrepreneurs just didn't have time to make the application. They didn't really know if they would be accepted or not. What we found was that, when our ambassadors really supported them, they were successful in receiving the funding.

Programs like that were run through our entrepreneurship centre. I believe it was run across the country. A program like that really helps because it is very personal and very supportive. The previous speaker spoke about the mental health challenges. Having someone come to visit you to talk to you about your business and provide business advice personally and directly like that had an incredible impact.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You're right. Mentoring and support were often mentioned when I was working on the issue of women and poverty.

I don't have much time left, but I would like to let you say a few words about the 50‑30 challenge. You didn't get a chance to talk about that in your opening remarks.

[Clare Barnett]

The 50-30 challenge is a federal government program. The concept behind it is really to ensure that Canadian organizations, non-profit as well as profit, increase representation and inclusion of diverse groups within the workplace while highlighting the fact, the concept, that Canada benefits when it gives all Canadians a seat at the table.

A mentorship program that runs through something that already exists, an existing concept, would certainly be easier to pilot. I truly believe that corporate Canada can play a significant role by providing best practices, like the example from MDA that I gave you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Now we're going to go over to Leah Gazan, who's online.

Leah, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the panellists for coming today.

My first question is for Ms. Haileyesus.

I just want to start by commending you for the tremendous work that you've done on the impact that economic abuse has on limiting women's ability to escape violence. I know that you've been a real leader. You spoke today about systemic and structural barriers—racism—that make it more difficult, particularly for BIPOC women, for racialized entrepreneurs, to participate in the many programs. Can you give an example and explain why?

[Meseret Haileyesus]

As you know, when women have a layered identity, especially if they are women of colour—plus if they are also impacted by gender-based violence—unfortunately, our system is not designed for those specific target groups. For example, one of the barriers that I mentioned in my policy recommendations was access to finance. As a single mom, as a former entrepreneur, I also had to close my business because of the structural barrier that I personally witnessed in the financial institution. Accessing a loan is one of the huge issues for women like me. Unfortunately, the system, especially the financial institution system, is not really tailored to us, and then you feel like you're disconnected from that sector.

The other thing is—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

To build on that, how is it not tailored to BIPOC women?

[Meseret Haileyesus]

It's the financial institutions—that's what I would like to refer to again. Especially when you need to access a loan, that's one of the challenges.

I was rejected many times, in three banks, when simply trying to access a small loan. I don't even know the reason, so I feel that as a black woman, as a racialized woman, maybe the system is not designed for me. That's my personal.... Also, I have seen many woman who also have lived experience with gender-based violence. They are not able to continue their businesses.

Getting a loan is a huge issue. If the financial institutions and the federal government would take action, we could engage them in a conversation so that they could understand our situation. That's what I would like to comment, because there aren't any clear guidelines for us, especially for emerging entrepreneurs. It's very confusing even to know which bank has a service for me personally. It's very hard for us, yes. That's a reason.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I know that you spoke about financial barriers. One of the things that I've proposed in this Parliament is for a guaranteed livable basic income. I'll give you an example.

One of my neighbours always wanted to open a business. While she was collecting the CERB because she couldn't work during that time, she got an education and now is an entrepreneur. I'm trying to put forward a bill, Bill C-223, to put in place a guaranteed livable basic income in addition to things like affordable housing with rent geared to income to support the economic empowerment of women, particularly women who've been marginalized by systems. I'm thinking of women living with disabilities, immigrant or migrant women, racialized women and Black or indigenous women.

Do you think a guaranteed livable basic income for women who want to pursue entrepreneurship, for example, would be helpful?

[Meseret Haileyesus]

Yes, definitely. Yes, that would be very helpful.

As you know, especially in the context of gender-based violence, poverty is a huge barrier for a woman to either go back into the workforce or start a business. As you know, many women spend 50% of their income on housing. As you know, housing is also a huge issue. I think having that program in place would definitely encourage women to secure more income, go back to the workforce and to build their businesses.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

I have a question again for Ms. Haileyesus.

You spoke about inequalities for BIPOC women. I'm wondering if you can expand on that point. What changes would you put in place to make things more equitable? I know that you spoke briefly about that, but what changes could we put in place to make it more equitable? You were talking about loans. You were talking about government programs. What do you think needs to be put in place to make it equitable?

[Meseret Haileyesus]

First, we need to invest in aggregated data and research. Research is very important in shaping our public policy because, when you talk about the issue of gender-based violence, it's very complex. We don't even know how many women there are who would love to start a business, so I think data is an investment. Data is crucial.

The second thing is that we need to invest in mentorship and working, especially for single moms who stay at home. They are disconnected because of abuse and trauma, so we need to create a platform for them to connect and then to learn and upgrade their skills.

Employment is also another investment, because when women are employed, definitely, as you know, they have a lot of wisdom and a lot of passion for change, so we need that.

Then the last thing is, of course, that we also need to create import and export opportunities for women of colour, because we have a lot of barriers to investing and being part of that platform.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to go into our second round, but we do have some issues with timing on this. We'll go three, three, two and two.

I'm going to pass it over to Anna for the first three minutes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks a lot to the witnesses.

I have a question for Ms. Haileyesus.

I come from the finance world, and I know that, for women entrepreneurs, there's a special loan and anyone, female or male, can apply for this loan, which is backed by a government guarantee. You mentioned earlier that you applied and were declined, but you weren't given a reason.

Coming from the banking world, I know that one of the rules was that, if we did not approve a loan, we had to provide concrete evidence as to why and explain. If not, the client had the opportunity to escalate it to the ombudsman. Did they not provide you with a reason?

[Meseret Haileyesus]

No, I didn't have any. There wasn't any justification. I was very surprised. That's my lived experience. I don't have any answer for that. I didn't receive anything. They told me I'm not qualified, so I have to look for another business opportunity.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Did you look into going to an ombudsman? You have that right. We all have that right. This doesn't sit well with me. If somebody said that to me, I'd want to know why. Was it a credit issue? Was it an affordability issue? Was it a TDS or GDS issue? What was the issue or reasoning? They have it where the government will back the banks. It used to be up to 25%. I know that ratio has changed recently.

I find that quite appalling, actually. I'm sorry they didn't provide you with better information. I'm not sure what banks you went to, but I would definitely not have taken that response sitting down.

My next question is for Ms. Désir.

I volunteered for an organization called Creating Alternatives. It was an organization that benefited young adults with cognitive challenges. The program was set up so these individuals.... Once they reach a certain age, the government has no plans for them. Two constituents in my riding had a daughter with severe disabilities. They decided to start this program to help them. Some of them have even gone on to find little part-time jobs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Anna, you have 15 seconds.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

You're kidding. Where did it go?

Anyway, I was asking.... We would do fundraisers, because you're allowed to do that as well as receive disability. It would go towards the payment.

Was it not the same? I'm not sure what province you're from. Does that not apply in your province?

[Cadleen Désir]

In Quebec, I could not do a levée de fonds, because I was a private enterprise.

We couldn't collect donations because we couldn't issue tax receipts. My business was a non-profit organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

I'm now going to pass it over to Anita.

Anita, you have three minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank all the witnesses.

I'd like to direct my question to Ms. Haileyesus.

I note the CCFWE has done cutting-edge work and research on financial and economic abuse. I know that, in a previous testimony before this committee, you mentioned it's not just in conjunction with other forms of intimate partner violence. It can also be a stand-alone form of abuse. You have a number of women whose spouses may control all the money. They don't have credit. They are leaving a bad situation. You talked about the untangling within the banking system when there is a divorce.

Can you talk a bit more...? Banking is a federally regulated area. What can we do in terms of ensuring the systemic barriers you talked about—both the regulatory barriers in accessing capital and the prejudice that exists...? How do we handle these very difficult situations with bank accounts when people separate?

What are some of the key things you think we should be proposing in this committee?

[Meseret Haileyesus]

Thank you so much.

One of the most important things I would like to propose is this: There should be a regulation on coerced debts. As you know, when women leave abusive relationships, one huge problem is that they have a lot of debt in their name. This debt affects her...either to go back to school or to even start a business.

I don't know whether you know about Bill 41. The Ontario Parliament, right now, is also conducting...information with us. Hopefully, that bill will have a good opportunity at the provincial level, but we want it to expand across Canada. It basically gives women relief, even though they have a lot of debt because of their spouse. I think that's another thing we need to invest in.

The second systemic thing is this: We need to find a way for women to secure loans and grants without credit checks. In a sense, credit is very important, but the current credit check doesn't allow women to go back to the workforce or start a business. That's a huge barrier.

The other thing, of course, is access to banking. As you know, if you want to go to a bank you need two IDs. Of course, some banks, right now, are working on that. Previously, if you were homeless, even to have a bank account, you need two IDs. Many women can't afford that. Access to banking should be a woman's economic right. Those are the things.

As well, one last thing is this: Engage financial institution leaders in this conversation. I'm not sure how it works, but that would be very important.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Perfect. Thank you so much.

We'll now move over to Andréanne for two minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Mrs. Barnett and Mrs. Désir, thank you for being with us today.

I will now turn to Ms. Haileyesus.

Let me begin by saying that the issue of women's economic empowerment is a major concern when it comes to coercive control in a situation of domestic violence. I think that making sure a woman can't earn a decent income to get out of the cycle of violence is part of that kind of control. I hope we can discuss this in committee.

Ms. Haileyesus, I'd like to hear you talk about the emergency loan that was granted to help businesses during the pandemic. Some people are currently talking about the risk of businesses going bankrupt, at a rate of 25% to 30%. Organizations like the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, or CFIB, and even farm unions are raising the red flag. The solution proposed by the government is to extend the loan by 18 days. If that doesn't happen, businesses will have to turn to banks, whose interest rates are really incredibly high.

How will these programs, which are already lacking in flexibility, hurt women even more?

[Meseret Haileyesus]

For those who are in business, definitely the pandemic affected them, but we have seen very good support from the government.

For those women who want to start a business, that's a problem. There is the presence of rigorous credit checks, and then the spousal coerced debt has really affected them. I know there are a lot of programs out there, but the programs are not flexible according to their situation.

As you know, housing is also an issue when you talk about economic empowerment. Without having affordable and accessible housing, it's very hard for a woman entrepreneur to start her own business, even from her kitchen. Those are the things that we need to consider in answer to your question.