Status of Women Committee on Nov. 20th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Good afternoon, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 86 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

I would like to thank the guests who are with us today.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. Click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. That is for those who are participating by video conference. For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English, or French audio. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to the interpreters and can cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to the microphone. We therefore ask that all participants exercise a high degree of caution, when using your earpieces and putting them beside the microphone.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function.

Before we welcome our witnesses, I would like to provide a trigger warning. We will be discussing experiences related to violence and assault. This may be triggering to viewers with similar experiences. If you feel distressed or need help, please advise the clerk or motion to us that you're having issues.

Before we get too much into the meeting and I pass it over to Senator Boisvenu, I'm looking at the time. We started today's meeting at 3:47. I want to bring this to the attention of members, because anyone elected in 2015 may have staff who are being awarded tonight at a 6 p.m. event. To Sonia and to the group, I want to ask about the start and end times. We are starting at 3:47, but at 6 p.m. there are special honours and awards for staff tonight. There may be some staff from this committee room attending that.

I want to know the will of the committee. Do you want us to shorten up our panels, so that we end at 5:30, 5:45 or 5:40? What are your thoughts on that?

Shall we end at 5:30?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

If we are ending at 5:30, I'm going to cut down the panels a bit. We'll make it very functional. I will work on that as we're doing this.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. Pursuant to the order of reference on Wednesday, November 1, 2023, the committee will commence consideration of Bill S-205, an act to amend the Criminal Code and to make consequential amendments to another act regarding interim release and domestic violence recognizance orders.

I would like to welcome the Honourable Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu, who will provide opening remarks to begin this important study.

Senator Boisvenu, I would like to thank you so much for being here. I will pass the floor over to you, for five minutes.

[Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu, Senator, Quebec (La Salle), C]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I want to apologize that my notes are not in English. I would have preferred to send you my notes, but I had very little time to prepare, so they are only in French.

However, if you have questions in English, I will answer in English.

Good afternoon, members of the committee. Thank you for this invitation to appear before you at this key stage in the study of Bill S‑205, which I introduced to combat domestic and spousal violence.

Ever since a repeat offender murdered my daughter Julie in 2002, I have been deeply involved in combatting violence against women. It is therefore with pride, deep emotion and feelings of hope that I speak to you today to underscore the importance of Bill S‑205. This bill is one I have discussed in recent years with hundreds of women in every corner of the country. They told me their stories openly, painfully, and in a dignified manner. These women were repeatedly subjected to attempted murder, aggravated assault, sexual assault, and psychological violence as they underwent these traumatic experiences. Once again, I want to thank all these courageous women for their invaluable assistance.

In the course of my consultations, most of these victims clearly explained to me that the justice system had failed them when they decided to report their abuser. Left to their own devices, and without any protection, these women who drew from their store of courage to break the silence, have all too often put their lives at risk by doing so. The numbers speak for themselves: in 2019, 136 women were murdered in Canada, a number that increased to 184 in 2022, a rise of 36% in four years. In 2021 in Quebec, 26 women were killed, mostly as a result of domestic violence, a sad record since 2008. Of them, 60% were murdered by an intimate partner.

Statistics Canada figures are indicative of an alarming reality in terms of violence against women: domestic violence accounts for 30% of crimes in Canada, with 107,810 victims. In addition to the violence against intimate partners must be added violence against children under 17 years of age. For 2018 alone, Statistics Canada reported 60,651 child victims. Of all these victims, 80% never reported violence to the police and 28% had suffered serious acts of violence. In criminal courts, 57% of trials were in connection with offences against an intimate partner. In 60% of domestic homicide cases, there was a known criminal history.

Of the women killed in Quebec since the pandemic, 90% had reported their circumstances to the police. That's indicative of the danger victims run when they report their abuser, particularly when he is on interim release. When a victim decides to report her abuser, she automatically becomes vulnerable to her spouse. If the spouse is not incarcerated and on interim release, the risk that violence might lead to death increases significantly.

The essence of my bill is therefore to take pre-emptive action to save as many lives as possible, in view of the fact that release conditions for an individual are neither followed up, nor do they prescribe a monitoring device. That's why the introduction of a monitoring mechanism in keeping with 2023 technology is absolutely necessary to keep the women of Canada safe.

While drafting this bill, I also relied upon expertise and advice from nine Canadian provinces where rates of violence are very high. Accordingly, I worked closely with most of the ministries of justice and public safety in these provinces to tailor my bill to their realities. No other private member's bill has ever led to such extensive consultation.

The ministers in these provinces support the bill, because the approach I am proposing would provide them with effective tools to combat this epidemic, particularly in terms of electronic monitoring. I also drew inspiration from countries that have adopted the use of electronic bracelets, like Spain and France, not to mention Quebec's recent adoption of them here in Canada.

The bill proposes amending section 515 of the Criminal Code to specifically state that victims have to be consulted about their safety and protection needs. The purpose of this measure is to give guidance to the Crown prosecutor by ensuring that the victim is consulted before asking the justice to place conditions on the accused's release. The bill would add to that section of the Criminal Code a condition stipulating that a justice could, if the decision is to release the accused while awaiting trial, require that the accused wear an electronic bracelet.

The bill also requires that the judge ensure the victim is informed of the right to request a copy of the conditions placed on the accused's interim release. This recommendation was also made by the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Senator Boisvenu, our time has come to an end.

[Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu]

I need five more minutes.

I didn't want to go fast because I knew the translators would have some problems.

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor].

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Okay. We will let you cede your time over to him so he can finish his speech.

Go for it.

[Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu]

The second part of Bill S‑205 pertains to the recognizance orders to keep the peace and be of good behaviour provided in section 810 of the Criminal Code, which means approximately 80% of domestic violence cases. Take note of that number: 80% of domestic violence cases end up with a recognizance order under section 810, that is to say without a trial or a charge. This section provides a general preventive justice regime, without any offence having been committed, but it establishes a source of criminal responsibility.

In November 2020, a report on section 810 was presented by the Université de Montréal and the Université du Québec à Montréal, in partnership with the Regroupement des maisons pour femmes victimes de violence conjugale. The report shows that this section is being used increasingly in domestic violence cases, even though it has been altered very little since its 1892 version. The report also notes a troubling finding, which is that section 810 is now most often used to avoid a trial, even though perpetrators subject to an order under this section fail to comply with the conditions in 50% of cases.

Bill S‑205 amends section 810 of the Criminal Code by adding to the current general order another that is specifically related to domestic violence. Electronic monitoring can establish a safety perimeter between the victim and the potential perpetrator. This means that police can intervene more quickly. It can also protect children, and the woman herself. Political action in Spain to combat domestic violence began in 1997. That country adopted electronic bracelets in 2009. Since then, some 950 women have been protected thanks to the bracelet, and no women were murdered when the bracelet was worn.

According to the new order, if a person has previously been convicted of a similar offence, the order would be for three years rather than two years. If the person refuses to comply with the conditions of the order, the prison term would be two years rather than the current one year.

The new proposed order would allow a justice to impose substance abuse or family violence therapy, which is something new in the Criminal Code. Every case is different and we have to allow justices the discretion they need to decide whether the accused should undergo therapy to help deal with their problem of violence and also put an end to the revolving doors in our courthouses.

I'd like to conclude with two comments. The first is from Justice Laskin, from the Budreo decision:The criminal justice system has two broad objectives: punish wrongdoers and prevent future harm. A law aimed at the prevention of crime is just as valid an exercise of the federal criminal law power under s. 91(27) of the Constitution Act, 1867 as a law aimed at punishing crime.

My final comment is a reminder that in only a few weeks, it will be the unfortunate anniversary of the event that occurred on December 6, the most deadly ever for women in Canada. I am hoping for one thing only: that we give them this bill as a sign of our support for December 6.

Thank you. I would be happy now to field any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

With the timing, there is two minutes left for Dominique to ask questions.

Thank you very much, Senator Boisvenu and Dominique.

Dominique, I'll pass the floor to you for two minutes.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Senateur Boisvenu, there isn't much time, but there's enough for us to gratefully acknowledge the work you've been doing in recent years, which you spent on political action to help defend victims. We thank you and are very appreciative.

Just in passing, I'd like to point out that there's no reason for you to apologize for speaking French to the committee. We're francophones, and we are delighted when witnesses speak to us in French.

As you know, I don't have much speaking time left. Some people have expressed reservations about the effectiveness of electronic bracelets. We all know that there are challenges with regional Internet coverage. What would you say to those who are more worried?

[Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu]

Thank you for the question. It's a very important one.

In order to draft the bill, we consulted the provinces, as I was saying earlier. We consulted the police, indigenous communities, former judges, abused women's federations, therapists and victims. The subject is a matter of concern in remote regions. The indigenous communities told us so.

Yet, we are still faced with the chicken and egg paradox, with some people saying that we need to wait until GPS monitoring is available across the country for the electronic bracelets, while others argue that the project should be launched immediately because satellite technology will allow for relatively complete coverage of Canada very soon.

It's true that there are some dead zones that are not covered now, but I think the experiment needs to begin, as it has in Quebec, with zones added as coverage increases. We therefore need to adopt this bill. Over the coming years, there will be broader coverage to provide protection for even more victims.

[Dominique Vien, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That was perfect timing. There you go.

Emmanuella is going to be on for the next six minutes, online.

Emmanuella, you have the floor.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Senator.

I'll begin by saying how sorry I am for everything that you experienced personally, and I thank you for having introduced this bill.

You spoke about the many communities and individuals you consulted, in addition to the police and governments in the various territories. You also heard and received messages from victims' families. Could you tell the committee about some of these messages so that we can take them into consideration?

[Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu]

Thank you for the question.

I think that it's the most important aspect of this bill. I spoke with more than 100 women over the past three years. A little later, you'll be hearing from two witnesses, both victims, who worked closely with me on this bill. The words that we heard most often from victims were “protect us”, “don't run government advertising campaigns asking us to report our abusers because when we do, our lives are at risk”. If you want women to report their perpetrators and for victims to be willing to speak out, then protect them.

Bill S‑205 complements Bill C‑233, which has already been adopted. What Quebec did was a complementary process. Most of the provinces have followed Quebec's lead by adopting legislation to require electronic bracelets, or will be doing so over the next few years. That means things have been set in motion just about everywhere in Canada to protect women. The goal of our bill is to give us the courage to protect victims who are brave enough to report their abusers.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much for your answer.

You spoke briefly about Bill C‑233, which has force of law in Canada and says that a justice may decide to require a person who committed a violent offence against a woman to wear an electronic bracelet. Now you're saying that you don't want this to apply solely to cases of violence against women, but to be used more widely. Can you tell us why you decided to widen its applicability in Bill S‑205?

[Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu]

I'd like to thank the member who sponsored Bill C‑233, which has already been adopted. However, its scope within the Criminal Code is relatively narrow.

I'll give you an example: subsection(4.2) of section 515 of the Criminal code, which has been in force since the adoption of Bill C‑233, focuses on specific offences, but does not include things like intimidation, breaking and entering and being unlawfully in a dwelling house. And yet most complaints from women are in connection with their ex‑spouse unlawfully entering and being in the house. It's often under circumstances like these that a murder is committed, but Bill C‑233 doesn't cover these offences.

Bill S‑205 does include them. Senator Pierre Dalphond—whom many of you know, I believe—worked closely with me on this bill. He introduced a section which, if it is adopted, would broaden the scope of Bill C‑233 without lessening its importance.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much.

Some people are required to wear an electronic bracelet as a means of reintegrating them into society, which is already the case in Quebec. However, some remove the bracelet and commit offences. Can the bill that you are proposing, Bill S‑205, help to reduce this risk? Have you taken this into consideration? Has something been provided in this bill that might be a solution to the problem?

[Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu]

Thank you for asking.

We consulted the technology companies that are currently using electronic bracelets in Canada in circumstances other than domestic violence. Examples include terrorism and other criminal offences. In Canada, approximately 400 men are now wearing the bracelet for crimes other than domestic violence. In Quebec, the figure is over 200 men. One of these men recently made the headlines. He successfully removed the bracelet he was wearing without any alert being triggered and the case is currently being investigated.

While no technology is perfect, the bracelet's score is 99.9%.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to move, for the next six minutes, to Andréanne Larouche.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Boisvenu.

I know that you are appearing in a specific context. You've been conducting a lifelong battle and are approaching your 75th birthday, when most people would be retiring.

As for me, when I graduated from my CEGEP in 2002, I returned to the Eastern Townships. As a Quebec woman, I was struck by the fact that I had my whole life ahead of me.

We are at the moment trying to make sure that there isn't “yet another one”. I think that's the sort of thing you have in mind. As you mentioned December 6, I'd like to start with some context.

I read a disturbing story in the news about rising instances of misogyny in schools, with some people going so far as to celebrate Marc Lépine on social networks. The teachers don't know what to do about it. Without saying anything more about Bill S‑205, what do you think about the issue of education, social networks and the role they play in violence against women?

[Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu]

Thank you for the question.

That leads me into a discussion of my second career, which consists of giving talks at elementary and secondary schools. There is indeed a problem between girls and boys, particularly when they are involved in their first emotional experience. I'm not talking about love. This relationship often involves intimidation and power, even at a young age.

I remember something that happened in grades eight and nine at a school in northern Montreal. A young girl was huddled in a corner. She seemed to be crushed and bullied by the group. When she got into the bus, she told her teacher, who was there, that no one was ever going to bully her again.

Women have to be taught to take control of their lives, to be sure, but men also need to be taught to respect women, because violence against women is primarily something that men do. It's important to stop believing that women alone will be able to control spousal violence. Men are the cause of spousal violence and women are on the receiving end. That's why Bill S‑205 focuses on therapy.

Until an emphasis is placed on mandatory therapy for domestic violence problems—as Ontario has done for a number of years now with considerable success, as indigenous communities in western Canada have done with considerable success, and as has been done for 18‑ and 19‑year‑olds in court for drinking and driving—the number of murdered women will be the same in five years. Work needs to begin at both levels when people are still very young, rather than waiting until they have reached adulthood.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Of course, education can't fix everything. That's why we need to do something about it and look into what can be done about threats and instances of domestic violence.

You seem to want to add something.

[Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu]

The message has to be clear. We can no longer release men under a recognizance order pursuant to section 810 of the Criminal Code when 50% of them don't comply with their conditions. When that happens, the message being sent is that they are entitled to reoffend. Justice has to be strict and give women hope, which is not currently the case.