Status of Women Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Sarah Niman]

Thank you.

A lot of the data and research that my response relies upon is contained within the volumes of the final report of the national inquiry into MMIWG. Those tell us the specific answers that inform indigenous women's experiences. In terms of their disproportionate representation among victims of gender-based violence and domestic violence, I don't want NWAC's position on this bill to be characterized as pitting different kinds of victims against each other. We are all on the same page in terms of advancing rights and voices of victims.

[Roxana Parsa]

I would agree with that and say that I think we are all here with the same goal, which is ending gender-based violence.

Speaking from LEAF, our work is developed through research and consultation with a range of individuals, some of whom are survivors and some of whom are experts.

I also think that it's a bit of a false binary to say that many experts are not also survivors. I think intimate partner violence affects a very large variety of people.

I think it is important to keep in mind that we are here to bring to light some of the perspectives of the most marginalized communities, who are often not here, as Ms. Coyle said as well.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you. I very much appreciate those voices that you are bringing here today.

My next question is for Ms. Coyle.

I'm going back to some of the things you said. It sounds that a lot of the arguments to amend this bill are around the fact that there are things that are redundant, things that may not be necessary, things that...well, the money would be better spent elsewhere.

What I'm not hearing is whether this bill would actually cause harm. When you're looking at something and saying it's already in the criminal law, that's very different from saying that if this bill is passed, there will actually be unintended consequences that would not have been in the legislative intent.

I also consider that when we heard witnesses previously, they talked not just about the sense of security or safety but also about the deterrent effect, for instance, that a bracelet would have, and also being able to prove in court where that person was if they did break their conditions.

I see Ms. Niman nodding. I'll give it to Ms. Coyle, and then if there's time, I'll have the other witnesses also respond.

[Emilie Coyle]

In my initial remarks, I used the example of mandatory charging as an unintended legislative reform that has ended up harming the people we work with. I'm sure you've heard multiple stories.

I used to be a defence counsel. I represented someone who used a toy that was characterized as a weapon. She was charged with assault with a weapon. She was defending herself when she was running away, and she threw the toy. When the police arrived at the home, they had to charge someone and they didn't know who the aggressor was.

Often in cases of intimate partner violence, the person who is harming the other person knows very well how to use the law against the person they are already harming. We have to be really careful when we look at utilizing the new tools in our tool box not to continue to harm people through a system that already has bias at its core.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Go ahead, Ms. Niman.

[Sarah Niman]

Thank you.

I'm going to lean on two truths that we hold to be true: One is that disproportionately, indigenous women are victims of domestic and intimate partner violence, and that indigenous women are overincarcerated in our federal prisons.

NWAC's position on Bill S-205, to respond to your question about whether there are unintended harms, is to ask that this committee, in its study, be alive to some of those unintended consequence vis-à-vis overincarceration of indigenous women.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Parsa, would you comment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

There are 10 seconds.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Ms. Parsa, you have 10 seconds.

[Roxana Parsa]

I would agree with everything that has been said.

With respect to the deterrent effect, there is not much evidence showing that electronic monitoring has a deterrent effect. Harshness of penalties does not lead to deterrence, and I also think there are technological faults—

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Perfect. Just wrap it up really quickly.

[Roxana Parsa]

I was just going to say that many of the technological barriers that arise can also lead to failures in deterring, because they know it won't work, really.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent.

Now I'm going to switch it over to Andréanne Larouche. You have two and a half minutes, Andréanne.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

After reviewing the “Rebâtir la confiance” report, I had in mind that it was more than 100 recommendations, but it contains 190, more precisely. As I said earlier, that report really did examine the question of spousal violence on a continuum, from the court to prevention, and including electronic bracelets. I would be very curious to see the study that Quebec is doing on this subject now. What would be important is to see the positive effects that are being observed on the ground after the report was done.

This bill has been introduced against a backdrop where again this morning, after Toronto, the counties of Prescott and Russell are describing this violence as an “epidemic”. Even Antònio Guterres declared that violence against individuals during the COVID‑19 pandemic was a shadow epidemic.

We can see that violence has consequences and that some people are more affected than others. The final report of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls shone a light on how difficult it is for these women and girls to turn to the system, report their situation, and have confidence in the system.

Ms. Niman, I would like you to talk to us about what could be added to the bill, or what could be improved in it, to better support indigenous women and girls. What more could we do?

[Sarah Niman]

Thank you for your question.

Our suggestions to the text of this bill to improve it for indigenous women are to make an amendment by adding a condition at proposed subsection 515(4), providing courts with the option to look to indigenous governing bodies that have authority to govern the accused to contribute community-based solutions as part of the conditions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Coyle, I am going to turn to you for one last little question. In a few seconds, what can we learn from mass murders? The report talks about coercive control during mass murders and about expanding the types of violence recognized by the system.

[Emilie Coyle]

Can you repeat that? I'm sorry. I want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In the mass murder report, there are several connections with violence against individuals. It talked about the issue...

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Answer really quickly, please.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Madam Chair, Ms. Coyle misunderstood the question. Can I have a few seconds more to repeat it for her, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Be really quick. It's just that your time is already up.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

One of the recommendations is to expand the types of violence recognized in cases of intimate partner violence, particularly the issue of coercive control. In a few seconds, what can we learn from the mass murder report regarding the bill?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have only five seconds to give an answer, so I will ask for that to be in writing. That was just way over time.

[Emilie Coyle]

Okay. I will write the answer.