Evidence of meeting #31 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Helena Borges  Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
Alain Langlois  Legal Counsel, Legal Services, Department of Transport
Mike MacPherson  Procedural Clerk

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you, and good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 31.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, September 21, 2006, we are examining Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Canada Transportation Act and the Railway Safety Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

After a very successful last day, we're going back to the three clauses that have been stood. We are starting with clause 29 and we are dealing with amendment number BQ-4 on page 21 of your program.

I will advise Monsieur Laframboise that the chair has a concern with the motion, but I'm prepared to let you place it on the table, and then we'll proceed.

Monsieur Laframboise.

(On clause 29)

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

The amendment is on page 21. At the same time, I will be discussing amendment BQ-5 found on page 22. We are suggesting that we add the other nuisances to the word "noise" so that the Transportation Agency really has the authority to issue guidelines for all types of nuisances. We have not focused solely on the word "noise"; that is why the heading of the clause is "Noise, Vibrations and Fumes".

Amendment BQ-4, on page 21, amends clause 95.1, which would read as follows: "A railway company must minimize any nuisance, including those caused by the noise, vibrations and fumes..." In this manner, the agency would have the authority to discuss all types of nuisances. This is why we have added the words "including those caused by the noise, vibrations and fumes".

The difference between amendment BQ-4 and amendment BQ-5, which is found on page 22, is that BQ-5 does not include the word "including"; it simply states "caused by the noise, vibrations and fumes". We would like to be able to discuss all types of nuisances and we would like to see the agency be authorized to deal with complaints regarding the various nuisances, including those caused by noise, vibrations and fumes associated with railways.

Then, we would amend clauses (b), by replacing lines 7 and 8 and (c), lines 20 and 21: "to minimize any nuisance, including those caused by noise, vibrations or fumes". The purpose is to add, to the word "noise", the other nuisances, including those caused by noise, vibrations and fumes. The agency would therefore be authorized to discuss all kinds of complaints regarding nuisances to the community.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you, Monsieur Laframboise.

I am advised that the amendment creates a new section in the Canada Transportation Act concerning limitations imposed on operators of railway companies relating to unreasonable noise resulting from the construction or operation of the railway. The amendment proposes to also include limitations on operators with regard to vibration and fumes resulting from the construction or operation of a railway, and Bill C-11 does not address any issues relating to vibrations or fumes.

The House of Commons Procedure and Practice states on page 654:An amendment to a bill that was referred to a committee after second reading is out of order if it is beyond the scope and principle of the bill.

The advice I've received and the opinion of the chair is that the introduction of limitations relating to fumes associated with the construction or operation of a railway in this amendment is a new concept that is beyond the scope of Bill C-11 and is therefore inadmissible.

Mr. Jean.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Mr. Chair, thank you for recognizing me.

I want to direct comments in particular to the Bloc in relation to their amendments. The department has provided us with a proposal, at our insistence, that would be a compromise in some degree and would maybe satisfy, although the Bloc proposal is inadmissible, and I suggest it would be basically on your ruling, Mr. Chair.

I think that very possibly some of the consolidation of amendments we have proposed and the compromise we have proposed may fit in with and be satisfactory to the Bloc's intention, if, subsequent to your next ruling on BQ-5, I were able to provide those to the committee. I think they would actually answer some of the questions and maybe move us along a little more quickly towards the goal of trying to finish this today, Mr. Chair.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I can advise the committee that the ruling on BQ-4 would be the same for BQ-5, just for your information.

Monsieur Laframboise.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

Before tabling our amendments, we checked with the legislative drafter to make sure that they were in order. He told us that they were in order. I am prepared to examine the government's motion, but we did verify whether or not these amendments were in order before tabling them. I do not want to challenge your decision. I will accept Mr. Jean's motion.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you. I appreciate your comments.

I'll ask Mr. Jean first to circulate the proposal, if he could. Before you comment, I'd like everyone to have it in front of them.

Mr. Jean.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

This is on a separate issue. Mr. Chair, I was thinking that of course everybody wants to get this done today, so we should move along in that order. Hopefully we can get something done based on this compromise.

I'm wondering if we could start the issue of noise provisions by asking the department to give us an outline. For today, I've asked them to prepare some sort of outline of the industry in general, and specifically on some of the amendments and comments.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Would it relate directly to what you're circulating around the room?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Indeed, it would.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Is that okay with the committee?

Mr. Hubbard.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

When the officials are here, it's very easy to say that this legislation doesn't pertain to noise and fumes, or fumes and vibration—I guess noise is a vibration, isn't it? It depends on how you hear.

In any case, maybe they could advise us on where people could look for legislative changes that would apply to fumes, which is quite a significant factor with diesel motors running continuously in some neighbourhoods.

If the chair would permit this, I would also like to know where we would have to go for that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Absolutely.

Then I would ask Ms. Borges to please start.

3:55 p.m.

Helena Borges Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport

Okay. Thank you very much.

I'll start by answering Mr. Hubbard's question. Along with a couple of other federal departments, Environment Canada in particular, the department regulates the emissions of locomotives. Currently we have a memorandum of understanding with the railway industry where the emissions from locomotives are regulated, based on the standards put forward in American legislation, because, as you know, most or all locomotives are constructed in the U.S. That is how those amendments would need to be made.

If I'm not mistaken, in the Clean Air Act, which was tabled a few weeks back, the MOU will continue until 2010, and then the emissions from locomotives will be regulated on a regulatory basis in Canada, similar to the U.S.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

Thank you.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Jean.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Mr. Chair, I think that even the proposed amendments we have allow some flexibility by the agency to address those through the legislation we're proposing. I think that's fair to say, is it not?

It gives them a wide ambit, and that's why we want to make sure the agency has the powers to deal with complaints, because we did hear from the witnesses. Although from a technical perspective we may not be able to get it in the act directly, I believe we found a way to get it there, so the agency can deal with vibrations and fumes.

Could you please comment on that, Ms. Borges?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport

Helena Borges

Let me give you a little bit of context in terms of how these provisions came along and what is their intent. The real objective we are trying to achieve here is a balance between the complaints and the concerns we have heard from communities and citizens, as well as the operational obligations of the railways.

As you know, in the parts of the act pertaining to railway transportation, section 3, there are numerous obligations with which the railways have to comply, and one of those obligations pertains to level of service.

Last week there was a motion tabled with this committee that touched upon those obligations with which the railways have to comply. In order for them to comply with those requirements of the act, they need flexibility in terms of their operations, because as you can appreciate, they are trying to meet the needs and demands of numerous shippers from across the country as well as the needs of ports, particularly ports on the west coast, which are getting increasing volumes of traffic, particularly from China and such. So it is really important that in looking at these provisions, we keep that context and that balance in play and in mind.

As well, we also have to remember that the railway lines in Canada are what I will call a shared facility or a shared asset. I think you received a letter from GO Transit's Gary McNeil following his appearance here, where he wrote to the committee some time ago expressing the concern following from the questions that were posed to him about what impact there would be on commuter rail services in particular if any restrictions are put on the operation of the railway.

In our three major cities, Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver, those commuter services operate on, primarily, a CN line, but also a CP line, and if we start restricting the hours of operation for the freight services, those commuter services are also covered by these provisions. They are not exempt from them. The question then is, if the freight has to move within a certain hour or within certain parameters, when can the commuter rail operators operate their services?

We recognize that there is a huge issue with railway noise. How this came about, as all of you are aware, is that back in the year 2000, the Federal Court of Appeal issued a decision that basically told the agency they didn't have the explicit power in the Canada Transportation Act to deal with railway noise complaints. Since then, the government recognizes there's a vacuum. There's no other piece of legislation that can be used to deal with these complaints, and we take these complaints very seriously. That is why we are putting this provision into the bill, and it is why I believe even the witnesses you heard support the provision and want the provision to be passed as soon as possible.

The three provisions in clause 29 are going to correct this deficiency that hasn't existed since 2000. The objective that we are trying to achieve here is to be very clear in the powers that the agency has and the obligations of the railways, but also we want to make sure that the agency has the flexibility to deal with the issues and we don't want to constrain the agency by only allowing it to respond to certain things. So the provision does that.

The provision starts off in proposed section 95.1 listing what the obligations of the railway are. In the amendments that Mr. Jean passed around, we've agreed to add one more, based on the motions that were proposed. But this is basically what the agency is going to make sure of, that the railway respects these obligations that are in 95.1.

If a person has a complaint, they come to the agency and the agency will look at that complaint. The first thing the agency will do is look at whether the complainant has tried to resolve the noise issue with the railway in question. We like to encourage these voluntary approaches. You heard from the Railway Association of Canada. They told you they are working with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, and they have in fact a very active initiative ongoing to solve noise disputes and other proximity issues. We want to encourage that. CP Rail does the same thing. They have a voluntary approach with the federation. We wanted to continue encouraging that.

However, we recognize that in a lot of cases we are not going to come to a solution. A solution isn't going to be possible. That is where the agency steps in. What the agency will do is, basically, if we leave the provision the way it is, it goes on site. It will go wherever the complaint is. If it is a railyard, for example, where the shunting is happening, or if there are idling locomotives there, or if it's on a track, the agency will go on site to look at how the operations are being done. It may need to look at things like noise impacts, decibel levels, or even if fumes or vibrations are being created. The agency will look at the whole situation and determine what action needs to be taken to resolve the noise complaint.

Those actions can be very rigorous, in that the agency is basically being given the power here to order the railway company--and I stress the word “order”--to take whatever action is necessary, either during operations or construction, to deal with that noise complaint. It could require the railway to move a certain activity out of one area of a yard to a different area of a yard; to not idle locomotives in a certain part; or to do shunting activities in a different part. These are the powers we are giving to the agency.

I can't stress enough that this is a huge hammer. There is no other mode that has this kind of hammer. This is the first time we're actually giving the agency the power to deal with a transportation company and be able to order it to do anything like this.

The other important thing to keep in mind is that the agency has the powers of a superior court. I know there were some concerns from the witnesses about what would happen if the railways didn't follow whatever the agency said. The agency is a court and has the powers of a court. It will require the railways to do that. The agency orders are fully enforceable, and we can't stress enough how important it is to give the agency flexibility, because by giving it flexibility, you are better able to address the very types of issues that you heard about from the witnesses.

Several of the members asked the witnesses if they saw one fix that we could impose. I don't think you got an answer on that. There are various situations, and whether it's on a line, in a yard, in an urban area, or in a more rural area, the agency will have the flexibility to deal with those issues. The powers we're giving it in this bill are very broad.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Laframboise.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC

I agree with you with respect to the noise, but as for the rest, the agency has powers. Clause 95.2(1)(a) states:

(a) the elements that the agency will use to determine whether a railway company is complying with section 95.1;

However, clause 95.1 deals with noise. It will be a lost cause for any other type of nuisance, as was the case in the Oakville decision.

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport

Helena Borges

Yes, but as I was saying to Mr. Hubbard, the Railway Safety Act prevails with respect to fumes released into the environment.

Recently, the department came to an agreement with the rail company. All locomotives are subject to the U.S. regulations because that is where they are built and manufactured. So this act does not grant this power.

With respect to vibrations, I should clarify that the vast majority of complaints received by the agency, and even by the department, pertain to noise. However, where there is noise, there are vibrations. I think that the two phenomena are closely linked. In my opinion, if we can resolve the noise problem, we will, to a large extent, be resolving the vibration problem.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Julian.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

How long do you see the process of drafting guidelines taking?

4:05 p.m.

Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport

Helena Borges

We have been speaking with the agency, and when they appeared before the committee recently they had already started to look at the guidelines. What we have asked them to do--and they are participating because we're also participating--is, to the extent possible, try to look at what the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and the Railway Association have already done and build on that. But we also want them to consult more widely with other municipalities and organizations that may have roles to play. So it won't take them long. We expect it will definitely be done within the next year or couple of months.

There are various groups already working on this issue. We know it has been an issue for several years now, so lots of work has been happening.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Jean.