Transport Committee on Feb. 14th, 2007

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

My colleague asked if you would elaborate as well on your recommendation that the committee obtain, for the record, such an undertaking from the minister, and I'm quoting again what you had told us. My colleague Mr. Volpe asked how you propose that we do that, and you didn't have enough time to provide an answer. I'm going to leave you enough time to provide that answer.

[Capt Dan Adamus]

A very good question.

I think Mr. Tweed's suggestion of having Transport Canada officials back at a later date...and I believe at that point they could probably answer that question.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I understand that, but if you're recommending that we as a committee obtain for the record such an undertaking, in what format would you suggest that record be obtained?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

I think as a witness here on the stand, it could be a verbal record, or it's in the purview of the committee what they would request from the Transport Canada official.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Fair enough.

If we couldn't obtain that commitment, whichever method we used to try to get it, and if it were indeed the will of the committee, would you be supportive in suggesting that we amend the section to restrict its extent or what it could be used for?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

We would have to look at it seriously again. Again, before you got into third-party regulation, it would have to go through the CARAC process, so there would be an opportunity at that point, and we would certainly bring up the point that it is on the record that it was not the intent originally, so there would be an opportunity there. But certainly, we would have some issues.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I imagine, though, that in your industry it is the same as many areas of human endeavour, that it's better safe than sorry. As my colleagues Mr. Laframboise and Mr. Julian were pointing out, now that this is before us, our role is to make sure legitimate concerns are addressed. So I would reiterate the invitation that I think Mr. Laframboise made to you, that if indeed you believe an amendment might be in order, I would certainly welcome such a thing from the pilots association for our consideration.

[Capt Dan Adamus]

Okay, we will take that under advisement.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I have a general question for Mr. Jeanes—and it's not covered in this, so the chair might rule me out of order here because it might not be in the law. But I remember that in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks in Washington and New York, the insurance industry withdrew somewhat from coverage and the government had to step in to provide some sort of self-coverage.

In the view of Transport 2000, should that be something that all governments or public authorities consider doing on a permanent basis, and not wait to be put into these kinds of situations that occurred back then?

[David Jeanes]

I think, Mr. Bélanger, the regulation of the insurance industry is far too complicated a matter. I can think of analogues in completely different areas; you know, there are churches that are having trouble getting insurance to cover some of their normal activities. So it's not just airlines that have that problem. Certainly the consequences of 9/11 changed many things relative to the aviation industry, and I don't think those are really the matters that are being considered in these revisions to Bill C-6 at this point.

We do think it's very important that the public understand what's going on. For example, if it's the case that the airlines really are unable to obtain appropriate insurance, then that's a serious safety issue that the public should be aware of in making their travel decisions, or in fact in making representations to government about what they want government to do about such a situation. But I don't think it's directly part of these amendments.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I understand that.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good afternoon, sir. Thank you for being here.

I too am somewhat apprehensive, especially about the designated organizations.

First, does your pilot association automatically include airline pilots, or only a certain class of those pilots?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

No, we don't have any restrictions as to who can join our association. Any airline pilot group is more than welcome in our association. We're actively looking for more members right now as we speak; it is ALPA's goal to represent all pilots in Canada and in the United States right now.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Could we say that you mainly represent the large airlines rather than just the small companies, like the commercial airlines?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

We do not represent pilots on the corporate side of the industry. However, we do represent pilots at Bearskin Airlines, a small carrier that has 60 pilots; Calm Air, with maybe 85 pilots, northern operations; pilots in the cargo industry at Kelowna Flightcraft; pilots at Air Canada Jazz; pilots at CanJet; and pilots at Air Transat.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

You've expressed your support of the safety management system. In addition, based on what you said and from what I understood, some companies are already using this system, and that moreover is what leads you to believe that it's a good system that could be expanded. Is that correct?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

That is correct. It is in place at a number of airlines right now. I believe Air Transat was one of the first airlines to implement SMS. From talking with their pilot representatives, I know that they're very happy with the way it works. They've noticed significant improvements in the safety structure of their airline.

I'm with Air Canada Jazz, and we have an SMS policy in place right now. It's doing a great job of increasing safety as well.

Again, all pilots are unanimous that this is the way of the future in order to help improve safety going forward.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

The fact that you believe it's a good system means that it will surely improve safety, and that's why you're in favour of it. Why use this safety management system in particular?

As a parliamentary citizen, I assume that the Minister of Transport is imposing a good safety system on all airlines. Why isn't this already being done, and why do we need an act to talk about it and impose it?

[Art LaFlamme]

This legislation, as we understand it, provides for a more effective implementation of SMS, but Transport Canada has already proceeded with regulations requiring aviation companies to have a safety management system. So this legislation just goes beyond, I guess, the current regulatory powers.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

I come to the organizations designated to monitor implementation of this system, as provided by the act. In my opinion, this is somewhat the bill's weak point. The important point is that a good safety system should be introduced and imposed by the government.

Why should we rely on a self-controlled organization designated by the community? Are we going through an intermediary to ensure the implementation of a good system because of a lack of staff at the department?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

No. With all due respect, that's not the intention. There's still a regulatory framework in place. There's still oversight by Transport Canada. All SMS does is go above and beyond what's currently in place.

There has been a fair amount of talk about Transport Canada losing inspectors. That's not something we're involved with as an association. We see that there are still audits done on a company's SMS system. If there are problems within that, it goes back to the more traditional audit.

From what we've seen so far, there haven't been any fewer inspections than what went on in the past.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Then...

[Art LaFlamme]

With respect to the designated organization, we can understand that there might be application in such operations as sport parachuting or ultralight aircraft, but we don't see it applying to operations where, say, a passenger is paying a fee.

I don't know what the future will hold, or what the evolution of things will be, but we do not feel it applies in our environment, the designated organization. We do not see the Air Transport Association of Canada regulating airlines on behalf of Transport Canada.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Except that I don't think the act defines the areas of application of the designated organizations. It's a bit vague.