Evidence of meeting #36 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
I think the accident rate we're seeing in the rail sector is in direct relation to the reduction in inspection and the delegation of those authorities to industry.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
So in a sense, cutting costs has become an important component in how railway safety is balanced off under the existing system.
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
I don't want to misrepresent or overstate. I don't think companies are making a decision to compromise safety or that safety is not going to be compromised, but it's the end result. When all of these cutbacks happen gradually, they end up affecting safety. I'm not going to say it's a deliberate decision on the part of industry. In some cases it's not intended. But whether or not the intent was there, we're seeing what the results are of those decisions.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Okay. Thank you for that.
Moving on to the airline industry, you've been very clear that you believe there are some real risks and dangers in pushing ahead with a similar type of system for airlines. Is there anything within Bill C-6 that reassures you that we might not be seeing the same impact—inadvertent as you may say—that we've seen within the railway industry?
4:20 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
I have no reason to believe there's anything in this legislation that would make the end results different on the aviation side.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thank you for that.
Mr. Stoss, you said in your brief that the provisions of Bill C-6 related to safety management systems are also of interest to the TSB, principally because this new approach has the potential to significantly improve the early reporting and resolution of potential and actual safety deficiencies. Would you admit that it also has the potential to have some of the perverse impacts we've seen within the railway sector?
4:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
The comments were based on our assessment that the safety management systems and the requirement to set the structures within companies, particularly companies that hadn't had these systems before, had the potential to ensure that more of the incidents would be reported and acted upon by the company. Those were my remarks based on the concept of the safety management systems.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
In theory—right? But we've seen what actually happens in practice. So is it not true to say there is a downside that is as evident as an upside?
4:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
None of our investigations to date into any of the occurrences in any of the modes has determined that was indeed the case, that there has been a downside.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
But the accident rate is much higher now than it was a few years ago.
4:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Again, our investigations have not determined that factors associated with the number of inspectors have been causes or contributing factors to those occurrences.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
No, but you will admit that the accident rate is higher now than it was before.
4:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
I'd have to check the figures that you quoted. I know that last year, at the beginning of 2006, it was the case. For the end of the year, I don't have those figures with me.
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
So we do have a higher accident rate. Obviously, then, if we have to weigh the potential for risk and the potential for an upside, we have to make sure we're putting the public protection first and foremost. Would you not agree with me there?
4:20 p.m.
Acting Director General, Investigation Operations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
My comments would have to go back to the statistics. We did see a rise in them at the beginning of 2006, but I don't have the figures that say what they were at the end of 2006.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just quickly, I'd like to again correct what Mr. Julian has suggested. Mr. Julian has suggested that there is an ongoing increase in the number of accidents in the rail sector. I believe you're correct, Mr. Stoss, that there had been an increase at the beginning of 2006. My understanding is that over 2006, the rate actually went down.
My concern here is the motive behind opposition to implementing a safety management system. Mr. Wing, I was concerned about one statement you made. You had suggested that whatever legislation was passed, it should respect the primacy of the Canada Labour Code. When we talk about primacy, we're talking about priority of one thing over another. Can you place that comment into context?
I'm concerned about public safety. Ultimately, for me, the most important aspect in everything we do at this table is to ensure the safety of the public, especially with this legislation. Are you suggesting that the primacy of the CLC should take precedence over public safety, or am I misreading that?
4:25 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
No, that's not what I'm suggesting by any means. The context was the confidentiality and non-disclosure part of this act, and ensuring that companies didn't have to disclose when there were safety problems within the workplace. What I'm saying is that the health and safety provisions of the Canada Labour Code should allow for the disclosure of that information so that people in the workplace are aware of the hazards that exist in the workplace, and so that things can be done to address those problems that may happen within the workplace.
It was with regard to that specific part of this legislation, that requirement for disclosure.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
It was my understanding that the confidentiality provisions and the immunity provisions of Bill C-6 are intended to ensure that when there are problems within the industry, the people on the front lines—who in many cases are the ones who first receive notification or are made aware of those problems—have an opportunity to come forward without being penalized for that action. Is that how you understand Bill C-6?
4:25 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
I understand that has been an explanation given by the department. We've had a number of briefings on it. All I can say—and I will take the advice of the chair to recommend it to those organizations that have had direct involvement with this—is that confidentiality and non-disclosure are being used as a way to keep from employees information that could potentially affect their safety in the workplace.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
I understood you to say that you were supportive of whistle-blower protection. Is that correct?
4:25 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
Our organization has a very long history of support for that legislation.
February 19th, 2007 / 4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
It's my understanding that Bill C-6 is not whistle-blower protection, but it provides confidentiality and immunity to ensure that employees who come forward with the interests of safety in mind are not penalized for that.
I wanted to touch on something else, and that is—
4:25 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Transportation Employees
Within a company, though.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Yes, within a company.
All the witnesses who have appeared before us so far, including Transport 2000 and the Air Line Pilots Association, all agreed that SMS was a significant step forward in ensuring the safety of the travelling public. With the Air Line Pilots Association, of course, we're talking about even their own members, the pilots who fly these planes.
I'm trying to understand what your position is. Are you supportive of safety management systems being implemented throughout the industry?
