Transport Committee on Feb. 26th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Earlier, in response to my question about the number of inspectors on staff, Mr. Jones, who is here with Mr. Facette, answered that more inspectors would be assigned to the task of auditing SMS systems, but not to aircraft inspection duties. Mr. Facette indicated that the number of inspectors assigned to the second task would be the same. It's not clear to me, because earlier, I was told that Transport Canada will focus more on auditing SMS systems, and conduct fewer aircraft inspections.

I'd like some clarification, because Mr. Facette just said that in his mind, it was clear that the number of inspectors on staff would not change. This is an important point, because it validates the safety management system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

That is not considered to be a point of order. What I'm going to do is go around the table one more time, Mr. Carrier, and I'll give you the opportunity to ask that question.

Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I want to pick up on Mr. Benson's last answer to Monsieur Laframboise.

I'm sorry that I don't have in front of me your testimony, and I look forward to reading all of your testimony. I'm not sure you've addressed it in any specific—You're talking about this box representing the necessity for safety and security, which I don't think anybody disagrees with. Your concern is that this box is not well built, as presented in Bill C-6, yet I think it would be useful if your apprehensions were a little more precise in terms of exactly where you would like to strengthen that box. Unless we have that, then we'll just be left with a vague sense of where you want us to go.

[Phil Benson]

The regulatory process that creates the regulations, from which this will derive, can be less than satisfactory, although not always. In short, issues that we might consider to be very important get short-shrifted. These are things that we regard as very important. Other issues that companies and corporations may wish, because they will save money, get steam-rollered through.

The process is such that when you make the rules, this is what's going to be audited, what's going to happen. So without that confidence in the process, we're not happy with it.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

My experience in law-making, if you will, is that you can circumscribe in the law—

[Phil Benson]

Yes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

—where the regulation can and cannot go.

[Phil Benson]

Yes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

In that sense, your specifics might be very useful in introducing amendments to the bill that is before us.

[Phil Benson]

Certainly on labour standards, etc., I will get back to you and the committee.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Monsieur Carrier. And I'm sure we know what the question is, but we'll let you put it again.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

We're trying to gauge the value of the SMS. Several of the witnesses are telling us that safety will be enhanced. Earlier, however, in response to my question, Mr. Jones from the Canadian Airports Council stated that inspectors were instead going to be focusing on safety systems audits rather than on aircraft inspections. Mr. Facette has just stated the opposite. As far as he is concerned, inspectors will continue to do what they've always done.

Therefore, I'd like to hear the Council's opinion on this matter. Should the inspections continue to take place—I would be reassured if businesses self regulated—or should we put our trust in the system which, theoretically should be sound?

[Jim Facette]

Mr. Chairman, there's no question that the role of the regulator in an SMS environment is going to change a bit and probably grow to become more of an audit function. But I don't recall in my remarks ever saying that there would be anything contradictory to what we've said here, that there would be less or more of anything according to numbers. There's no inconsistency at all.

My colleague is quite correct, in that the role will change in an SMS environment, but I don't believe that the act goes to how many inspectors are going to be used for anything.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Could I add that probably this should be a question that we ask the department directly?

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Fine then.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Atamanenko, do you have a follow-up question?

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Yes.

Before I start, too bad he's gone, but my honourable colleague Jeff kind of made light of my last question, and I'd like to say that this is safety—serious business. And we're not in question period. All of our questions are valid.

Ed mentioned self-regulation, and I'd like to pursue this with Mr. Gage.

Your association is a leader in SMS. You're blazing new trails in aviation. You've been working with Transport Canada for some time, studying a new approach. According to information posted on your website, you've been working with Transport Canada on this since before the year 2000.

There's a very interesting report on your website, co-sponsored by you and Transport Canada. It's called “Self-Regulation of Business Aviation in Canada: Analysis of the Feasibility of Adopting a Self-Regulation Model for Business Aviation in Canada”. It would seem to be the launch point for your association to assume responsibility for licensing and safety oversight.

Would you characterize business aviation in Canada as being self-regulated? Also, would you say that the SMS system approach was one of the foundations at the start of business aviation self-regulation?

[Rich Gage]

Thank you.

The study was initiated in 1998-99. It was a feasibility study. The terminology “self-regulation” was used for a period of time, but as a result of that feasibility study, and then a second-phase study, it was quite clear that it was not the terminology we should be using, nor was it the process toward which we were working. We were certainly working toward an administrative and management responsibility, but it certainly wasn't self-regulation. Some two or three years after that feasibility study was initiated, we in fact changed the terminology and have not used “self-regulation” for at least five or six years.

The safety management system is the foundation of the concept by which we help manage our community. It's a system that emerged as a result of the work we were doing through the feasibility study. It was something that James Reason and others have academically put together. I would suggest that our work is probably one of the forerunners of actually implementing a safety management system. There's a lot of academic material out there, but we have some first-hand experience with that.

As with any other management process, it continues to be a work in progress. To this point, we would be complimentary of the system but recognizing that it is cultural change and recognizing that there's a fairly substantial amount of training that is required. In fact, one of our new initiatives is to conduct training such that our community is better trained, more knowledgeable about SMS, and therefore more capable of actually using it to its full extent.

[Alex Atamanenko, NDP, British Columbia Southern Interior, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Gage.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Fast, a final question.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to address the issue of the number of inspectors. There was a suggestion at a previous meeting of this committee that the number of inspectors had gone down. One witness, I believe, suggested that. I believe we asked that witness to table information supporting that. Mr. Laframboise just a few minutes ago suggested the same thing. I would ask him to table evidence to that effect as well.

It's my understanding that the number of inspectors in 2002 was 862, and it went up to 873 in 2006-07. So I'd like to see some clear evidence that despite the fact that SMS has been actually implemented in the airlines, in fact the number of inspections has gone down, regulation has gone down, and somehow the whole system is at risk.

Are any of you aware that the number of inspections or the number of inspectors has actually gone down since you've implemented SMS? None of you?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Monsieur Laframboise, on a point of order.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I'd just like to inform my colleague Mr. Fast that federal inspectors tabled a document at the last meeting which lists the number of inspectors and pilot inspectors, that is federal pilots, and reports on the staff cuts that have taken place. Everyone received that information, Mr. Chairman.