Transport Committee on April 23rd, 2007

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

That was my question. If there's a loose nut, let's say—of which there are many on this Hill—if there is a loose nut on the plane, and I'm talking of the physical kind rather than the political kind, how would they find the loose nut? How would you be able to possibly find that nut unless it was obviously visible under the old system?

[Marc Grégoire]

Under the old system, I would say that there would have had been a remote chance that one of our inspectors could find a loose nut. He would have had to fall on it by pure accident, so to speak. The chances of that loose nut being observed by a mechanic and the mechanic signing before the aircraft had to go to meet the schedule were far less than with the SMS, because he would fear reprisal because he would delay the plane. The plane would be late an hour or two so he could fix this loose nut, maybe. With SMS, all those little problems will be reported without fear of reprisal by the mechanic or anybody who sees it.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

For instance, if there were a series of loose nuts on that particular plane or in that particular maintenance schedule for that group of people for a plane, that would come forward well before, because the person responsible for tightening those nuts and not doing the job would be identified through other methods before there could be a catastrophe.

[Marc Grégoire]

Exactly, and it would be without fear of reprisal throughout the company. That's very important. Before, in this situation, and I'll use the same example, if somebody found a loose nut, they would try to find whose fault it was. Then it would be, “It's Joe's fault. Let's fire him.” Therefore, nothing would be reported.

What we had before was not encouraging reports, because you always feared, as an employee, that there could be reprisals.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Would it be fair to say that this would actually be better for the employees, as well, because when they are found to have—

[Marc Grégoire]

Companies that have implemented SMS, like Air Transat, for instance, have seen a major increase in the number of reports. At the same time, they have told us that they have seen a significant increase in the morale of employees, because you encourage people to talk to each other. You encourage people to report what they see. You encourage people to suggest safety improvements in a transparent and open manner.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

You're suggesting that if we maybe implemented SMS in the political sphere, we'd have fewer nuts on the Hill, as well.

[Marc Grégoire]

I haven't suggested anything, sir.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thanks for your answers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Go ahead, Monsieur Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to come back to what Mr. Preuss said about the real intention of clause 12 of the bill.

Thank you for confirming that what was said by ALPA was indeed an accurate reflection. Would you please elaborate on what you meant, which is not in the current edition of the proposals before us?

[Merlin Preuss]

Do you mean what I meant by low risk? I'll give you an example of what I meant, and there are probably a few of them out there.

Right now, if you and I decide we are going to get into the ultralight business, we would find a relatively benign regulatory environment. In other words, we haven't taken the initiative to put in a firm, elaborate regulatory system, because frankly, it is a low-risk area. However, the growth in that area would indicate to us that if there's anything we can do to put the ultralight operators on a more professional basis, we should do that. One way to do that is to encourage an organization out there to take it upon itself to develop some standards they can work with, to develop some procedures, to perhaps even create a regulatory framework wherein they can control some of the activity. Because right now it's not regulated.

You would find the same, perhaps, in the unmanned vehicles area. You could find it in the air applicators in this country, the ones that are in there doing it.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

In all air transport areas?

[Merlin Preuss]

That was never the intention. The closest thing would be the delegation system we have put in place for non-paying passengers in home business aviation.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

What he said was that they had been advised by Transport Canada officials—that's you—that this provision is meant to address only low-risk, non-air-transport areas of the aviation industry.

[Marc Grégoire]

The minister has indicated that he is ready to table an amendment to the legislation you have in front of you.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I haven't seen that amendment. Until I have, I can't really judge.

[Marc Grégoire]

Well, no, but he made an offer to you to put this.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'm aware of that, but as I've explained, my difficulty with it is that if indeed something should end up in front of the judicial system, it might be very important for the intention of the legislators at the time to be put in play. If that was the intent in the drafting, it's not reflected in the act, or certainly not in the bill we have.

That's not my intent. I'm trying to probe here to understand what is meant by that. That is my responsibility as a legislator. I want to understand what you meant—or what they meant, which you say is not accurate—by non-air-transport areas.

[Merlin Preuss]

I didn't say it wasn't accurate. What I said was that as the minister has indicated, we would be more than pleased to work on something for the minister to present here, which would put some box around that title.

Frankly, it's not a new provision. It's been there for the five or six or seven years that we were looking at it, and we never looked at it the way you gentlemen have looked at it. This is something that wasn't deliberate.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Is there a report on the matter brought up by another witness on the SMS in small businesses, and the special focus that Transport Canada was to give on how to introduce SMS in small businesses? Is there a report available?

[Merlin Preuss]

The pilot project report is available. It's on our Internet.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you. I'll go get it.

Second, is there a schedule of introduction of SMS in these low-risk, non-air-transport areas?

[Merlin Preuss]

With respect, you're mixing up the designation clause with SMS. They're totally separate.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Okay; is there a schedule of introduction of designated...?