Evidence of meeting #48 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
I don't mean to interrupt, but I just want to make sure that our questions and answers are in a context of some accuracy.
Judge Moshansky's name has been brought up. I can read back into the record what Hansard showed that Judge Moshansky said. He did not say what Mr. Storseth suggests he said. In fact, he agreed--
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.
This is a matter for debate, and I have lots of quotes I can give, too, on what Mr. Moshansky said. He said if SMS would have been available, the Dryden incident probably never would've happened. He actually, in his original report, said that some system of management would be a good thing. That's a point of debate, and Mr. Storseth has the floor.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
I'm going to rule that it is a point of debate, and I would ask Ms. Brazier to finish her comments, please.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
On a point of order, I'd like to make sure we haven't used up my—
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
President, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Dax Air Inc.
As I was saying, our right to operate, to earn an income, and to recoup some of our hefty investment in our company is in the hands of the government, and the government has the ultimate power to take it away or to modify it or to restrict our right to operate. Apparently, as we found out, they have the right to modify documents outside the standards at their own whim and fancy. So when we talk about reprisal, it's not about somebody coming in and breaking our legs—we hope. We are afraid of our right to operate being taken away, because ultimately, what do we have left then?
Does that answer your question?
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
Have you experienced this in the past, or are you experiencing it now?
I'm not trying to be confrontational here.
4:50 p.m.
President, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Dax Air Inc.
No, I understand. You're trying to get to the bottom.
As I mentioned a little earlier, when we went to get our certification for our company, we were probably close to the day we were scheduled to operate, and we had been trying for months to get to mediation, because there was a discrepancy over policy versus regulation. Our dispute went all the way up the food chain, from the original inspector right up to the head of our region, and we did not get any satisfaction until the bitter end. All along the way, there was the threat, as I said, to withhold our certificate.
Another operator whom we were doing work for was threatened, if he continued to use our company to do his manuals, that they would get a very extensive audit. Our response was, if your company meets the standard, Transport could come in for a six-month audit, and it might not be very friendly, but let them.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
From whom did these threats come? Is it an individual in Transport Canada?
4:50 p.m.
President, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Dax Air Inc.
No, it was various departments in Transport Canada. We can't single out an agency. It is the agency; it's the entire thing.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
In the future, if you receive any of these threats because of your appearing here, everybody here would be more than happy to look into it for you.
Mr. Rubin, I understand you're not in favour of safety management systems, as you put it, or am I going too far in saying that?
4:50 p.m.
Public Interest Researcher, As an Individual
No. I'm all in favour of prevention, of getting the airline industry to understand standards, to improve matters, and to work it out with the regulator. But that's the nature of the public beast. It's that person, namely Transport Canada, just as if it were the Canadian Food Inspection Agency or the Nuclear Safety Commission. They're regulators. They're there not just to play nice with the industry. They're there to make sure that certain things are enforced when there are infractions or violations. So the terms are being batted around a little too freely in this context.
You also mentioned, and I am all for, just like the pilots and everybody else, a culture of safety. But when you mix it with the culture of secrecy, I don't care what the field is, you're playing with dynamite, because the public is not going to put up with it.
Transport Canada has crossed the line, and that's the problem with the SMS. They've crossed the line by being arrogant, by not listening to people, by going behind closed doors, by excluding certain people when they want things done. Now they're coming to Parliament and saying, “It's a wonderful system we've created; legalize it.” Legalize prostitution. Legalize SMS.
Wait a minute. Let's give this a second thought.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Storseth Conservative Westlock—St. Paul, AB
I'm not sure anybody's going to that extent, Mr. Rubin.
4:55 p.m.
Public Interest Researcher, As an Individual
Well, they're going to the extent of saying let's shut out the public from knowing anything. They're going to the extent of saying, let's drop regulatory audits. They're going to the extent of saying, let's no longer have people be able to get certain kinds of CADORS or other building blocks for safety.
That's wrong.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Don Bell Liberal North Vancouver, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Balnis, you made a reference to page 20 of your report, in which you said that CUPE was concerned that the aviation SMS has been encroaching...you say before the passage of Bill C-6, it “has been encroaching negatively on other important legislation”, including the Canada Labour Code. Can you briefly...?
I'm going to share my time, Mr. Chair, with my colleague Mr. Bélanger, and I have my clock running too.
May 2nd, 2007 / 4:55 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Air Canada Component, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Very briefly—and I think this will answer Mr. Storseth's question about pilots and flight attendants, because we're in the same aircraft—in June 2002 there was a tail strike of an airline in Frankfurt. A flight attendant was improperly in the cockpit. She was traumatized by the incident, because the pilot said “we're going to crash”. She went off sick. She has never returned to work.
The pilots completed an air safety report under the no-discipline policy that is part of SMS. We don't have any problem with not being disciplined, but that report was never provided to the occupational health and safety committee. Air Canada appealed a direction, supported by ACPA, whereby we would not know the information the pilots provided. That is the issue of excessive secrecy that we attempt to distinguish.
Non-punitive reporting is fine, but when stuff becomes confidential and secret so that you cannot do investigations, that is a dysfunctional safety culture, wherein the airline or the pilot can hold stuff and we cannot access it.
If you can fix that—and we've offered you recommendations—I think we can go a long way towards addressing what Mr. Storseth was concerned about. As a very simple example, a concrete example, we have now been two and a half years in litigation over getting that pilots' report so that we could complete an investigation.
And having to force that flight attendant to relive her testimony—and Air Canada said it was never an accident.... It was a category B, with $10 million damage to the plane, and they won't share a report? What is wrong with that picture? That is not SMS; that is secrecy.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Don Bell Liberal North Vancouver, BC
Okay. I think I understand. Thank you.
Ms. Brazier, I have your correspondence and the correspondence you provided us that came back from Transport Canada. Some of this relates to, I guess, the communications; the other is the SMS question I'm asking.
My understanding of Judge Moshansky's comments, by the way—and I don't have the transcripts in front of me, but I have my memory—was that he talked about SMS and regulations and Transport Canada continuing. In other words, SMS shouldn't replace Transport Canada's scrutiny. His suggestion was that it was an enhancement of what was there—don't drop the Transport Canada role in favour of SMS. That was my take on it.
You indicate repeatedly throughout the material you've sent us your concerns, and I've highlighted a couple of them.
You put down first of all that the industry has not been properly consulted. On page 2 of your letter of March 13, you made reference to the percentage of airlines that had been contacted being very small. I think you said it was 1.6% and 0.5%—in other words, 9 out of 574.
The other point is that you're saying that under SMS there are safety violations because the self-regulation doesn't work, and that because of cost, because of competitiveness, many of the airlines are just ignoring it. They're flying overweight, or they're doing other things.
Do I have that correct, then?
4:55 p.m.
President, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Dax Air Inc.
You just threw a lot of stuff at me. First of all, we as an air taxi industry don't have SMS in place yet, so I don't think I can speak to that.
Definitely, with regard to oversight, I think that was the intention, but what we're contending is that the oversight under our present system, which is flawed, is non-existent. All these occurrences and the situation we've described here today and in our prior communication are going on all along. It's been going on for years and years. It was going on when SATOPS was published. In fact, they claimed that Canada had the safest system in the world, and then they issued a 50- or 60-page report saying all of the things that weren't so safe about it.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Don Bell Liberal North Vancouver, BC
I apologize. In your letter you did say:
Safety violations are so widespread that Safety Management Systems (SMS) and self-regulation will not work in our sector at this time.
Well, it's not there.
5 p.m.
President, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Dax Air Inc.
What we're saying is that we would like to see the regulations start. We would like to see those items addressed before you can even talk about SMS.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Don Bell Liberal North Vancouver, BC
On the bottom of page 2 of that same letter, you say it begs the question “why the government is trying to”, you say, “ram this process through when there is widespread concern...”.
On what do you base that concern?
5 p.m.
President, Operations Manager and Chief Pilot, Dax Air Inc.
I think if you've consulted the witness list for all these consultations and proceedings, you will find that we are the first and only CAR 703 operator—and again, I thank you all for allowing us to appear here—to be able to speak out on these issues.
As I pointed out in that letter of, I believe, the 22nd—the one you were referring to a minute ago—