Evidence of meeting #51 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Right now, Transport Canada is responsible for issuing these certificates. Correct?
5:05 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Actually, further to a series of amendments several years ago, Transport Canada was stripped of this earlier responsibility.
In other countries, the business aviation sector is not regulated. Canada is taking matters a step further. By giving the Canadian Business Aviation Association the authority to issue certificates, we're going a step further than other countries. We've amended our regulations, while maintaining basic regulations governing pilot licensing, aircraft airworthiness and flight rules. These regulations apply to everyone at all times.
May 14th, 2007 / 5:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Part of what we're struggling with around the table is to get the information we require before we go into Bill C-6. The first issue I wanted to raise with you is the whole question around flight inspectors. We have information on flight inspectors' positions, but what we don't have is how many positions are vacant. In how many positions currently are employees on leave? How many are on long-term disability leave? How many of those positions are vacant for other absences? That's information I would very much like to see, and I think other members of the committee would very much like to see. Not the number of positions. Of course, that doesn't change, but how many are actually being filled? How many are otherwise absent through long-term disability or vacant positions? If you could table that tomorrow with the committee, that would be extremely helpful.
Secondly, on the issue around the closed files for these serious safety violations that were being inspected, we heard testimony that there are about 100 files. Mr. Rubin, who testified last week, believes the number is much higher. We did ask a number of weeks ago to have that information tabled; it hasn't been tabled with the committee. That information would be helpful as well. Before we proceed, we need to get that information. Otherwise, I think there's a sense that something is being withheld from us. I'd like to be proven wrong by having that material brought forward.
One of the witnesses spoke to the Air Transat near tragedy, and I want to know whether Transport Canada has audited the SMS for Air Transat.
5:05 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
My understanding is yes, it has.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Would you table that audit as well with this committee?
5:05 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
If the information is there, available, yes. I know there was a preliminary assessment, but I'm not aware of the whole evaluation that was done because it's not really my branch; it's another branch, but we can verify. The information is available, I'm sure.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
But you do believe there was an audit done on the SMS for Air Transat.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Well, I believe there was at least a preliminary assessment of their SMS system, yes.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Okay. So whether it was a preliminary assessment or an audit, you will table that with this committee, hopefully tomorrow. I mean, time being of the essence with this, if we are going to be looking at clause-by-clause, obviously we need this information--the number of vacant positions, the number of closed files, what happened to those investigations of serious safety violations, and, because of the testimony today, Air Transat's SMS, either a preliminary assessment or an audit, preferably both, if that was done.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
As I mentioned earlier, the testimony today about the Air Transat accident is something that happened before we established a pilot project SMS with Air Transat. I think this needs to be very clear. There was no SMS when the Air Transat accident happened. There was no SMS whatsoever anywhere in Canada. After the accident, one of the conditions to allow Air Transat to continue operations was that they would establish a pilot project SMS within the company. After that, we came up with our mandatory SMS requirements for all the other 705 carriers.
This is very important, because one might think that the accident happened because the SMS system wasn't good. No, there was no such thing as SMS when the Air Transat accident happened—I don't remember exactly when, but about three or four years ago.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
But you did state that you believe the preliminary assessment was done.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Yes, I did.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
And that would be available if it was done, yes.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Okay. But I'm not sure...you're saying you're going to go back and check, right?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
What I'm telling you, Mr. Julian, is I'm not in charge of the file for Air Transat, the branch who did assess, evaluate, the SMS. My understanding is yes, they did one preliminary assessment at least. And that would be available, yes.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
And it may be more than preliminary; if it's more, so much the better. But I cannot really tell you.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Okay. Thank you for that. But what I am suggesting is that we need that material this week, so I would ask you to make that material available.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
We'll see what we can do.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
I want to come back to the point that Mr. Volpe raised, which is that after the testimony that we've heard, most of the witnesses who have come before this committee and have testified in detail have raised very serious concerns. Justice Moshansky was one of those witnesses. He talked about regulatory oversight not being merely reduced but being systematically dismantled under Bill C-6, and we've heard this from many different witnesses who've testified in much more depth.
We've had witnesses who've talked about the theory of SMS, and I certainly understand that there are those out there who believe in the theory of SMS. Most witnesses have spoken theoretically to SMS, but anyone who has spoken to the details has raised serious concerns.
So getting back to Mr. Volpe's point about whether or not this makes sense to push forward, my concern is, is there another agenda at play here?
In the previous transport committee, in the previous Parliament, we had issues around reducing the flight attendant ratio, which many of us at the transport committee thought was a bad idea. We managed to convince the minister in the previous Parliament to stop that approach. Then we came into the new Parliament and the issue was right back on the table with a new minister, and we had to convince that minister, again, that we did not believe it was advisable to reduce the flight attendant ratios on Canadian flights.
Some of this took place in the last election campaign, some of the reducing of the regulatory oversight. My concern is that there seems to be an agenda that's pushed forward despite the fact that we have very credible witnesses expressing real, serious concerns about Transport Canada's direction. I don't get a sense from you, as the high officials in Transport Canada, that there's any reflection upon what that might mean, that perhaps this is the wrong direction to take.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
First of all, I have all due respect for the Honourable Justice Moshansky. My understanding is we offered to brief him a couple of times, even before he appeared before the committee, on what Transport Canada was doing with respect to SMS, and we never had a response from Justice Moshansky.
My understanding, too, is that Mr. Justice Moshansky was provided with some information, but he did not have the complete information. You're talking about witnesses who came here. You probably realize we didn't offer many witnesses. We could have. We could have brought 20, 25 witnesses here to give you the success story of SMS. Maybe we should have done that, but--
