Evidence of meeting #51 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Former Civil Aviation Inspector, Transport Canada, As an Individual
When I arrived at Transport, I started to hear--and if I heard this once, I heard it a hundred times--that we needed another Dryden. That was how we were to get money. That was how we had Dubin—
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
4:10 p.m.
Former Civil Aviation Inspector, Transport Canada, As an Individual
Another Dryden--a crash. That's how you get your money. What happens when they get the Moshansky money is they use it to almost circumvent. They satisfy their recommendations, but they don't necessarily follow the spirit. I'll give you a quote from my manager, who I brought this file to: “You can't change the world. Keep your notes like I do. When the next smoking hole comes, you'll be clean.” Now that was my immediate manager who has never worked in the industry. That's the mindset the inspectors have to work around.
May 14th, 2007 / 4:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
I also wanted to quote briefly the Canadian Federal Pilots Association. You referenced that as well in your presentation. The Canadian Federal Pilots Association were surveyed, and 80% of them believe this Transport Canada plan for SMS will prevent them from addressing and correcting safety problems before they happen; 67% believe that Transport Canada's SMS will result in a higher level of risk in Canada's aviation system; and 80% believe that SMS is simply a response to dwindling resources on the part of Transport Canada. Do you believe if we simply push through this Bill C-6, without gutting it and rebuilding it, that essentially we will be putting Canadian lives at risk?
4:10 p.m.
Flight Technical Inspector, Certification and Operational Standards, Transport Canada, As an Individual
Yes.
4:10 p.m.
Former Civil Aviation Inspector, Transport Canada, As an Individual
It would be a free-for-all.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Mr. Danford, thank you for that.
I would like to come back to your issue around Air Transat and that flight. Could you give us a little more detail about how you believe a lack of regulatory oversight was a contributory factor to that near tragedy?
4:10 p.m.
Former Civil Aviation Inspector, Transport Canada, As an Individual
I don't know about the lack of regulatory oversight before, but after, there was no enforcement investigation. The investigation was a paper exercise. Somebody who had been on stress leave before the crash was asked to sign off on it. That's how some things get done, or maybe have to get done. But Air Transat was a perfect example of SMS. The log books were locked in the office. The engineers decided to do a jury-rigging, but they let it go for another four and a half flights. If that case was studied along with Davis Inlet, then you'd have enough to know what's wrong now and enough to know where to go in the future. There's another one like Davis Inlet lurking out there, and I'm sure it's Pelee Island. I'm sure that's one of the files that has been closed off and given to you. The five crashes that we analysed in the TRINAT were all the same. There was a lack of regulatory supervision and pilots flying below limits. Everyone but Transport knows.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Carson, are you still employed by Transport Canada?
4:10 p.m.
Flight Technical Inspector, Certification and Operational Standards, Transport Canada, As an Individual
Yes, I am.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Have you received any threats about your testimony before this committee?
4:10 p.m.
Flight Technical Inspector, Certification and Operational Standards, Transport Canada, As an Individual
Believe it or not, no. I did get one call from one manager encouraging me. No, I just don't believe Transport works that way. At least, I haven't been approached that way anyway. I have a great deal of loyalty toward the department. Perhaps there are some managers there now who probably feel otherwise.
I'm a former executive pilot. I flew two prime ministers around, and when we had some issues with the way our job was being treated, I thought Transport Canada treated the people I worked with at that time incredibly well. That earned my lifelong loyalty. I don't consider this to be a disloyal thing at all. I'm here trying to say if we're going in this direction, if we're going toward SMS for valid reasons, cost or whatever, we have to do some more to the other people out there. We have to look at the checks and balances, at the other half of the house. Please, don't ignore it, because we're going to need that in the future.
You have to give those people, God bless them, the will, the protection they would need to be able to say there's a problem, and they're going to stand up and be accountable.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Thank you for that. There have been some allegations that Transport Canada has been threatening its employees not to appear before this committee. You're not aware of that. There are senior officials of Transport Canada here today. Are you not afraid of them?
4:10 p.m.
Flight Technical Inspector, Certification and Operational Standards, Transport Canada, As an Individual
No, I'm not afraid of them and I hope they're not afraid of me. If I'm a threat to them, by God, what a world we live in--seriously.
I think it is a democracy. As I was saying to people as I left the office, “I guess it's a democracy in action here, and I live in a wonderful country.” Maybe that sounds--well, my best friend in Transport thinks I'm naive, God bless her. She's probably right, but I believe in this system. I'd have to. I could retire. I have 35 years of pensionable time, but I'm still working because I feel I'm doing okay.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
It might encourage you to know that the government is bringing forward some amendments that may address some of your concerns.
4:10 p.m.
Flight Technical Inspector, Certification and Operational Standards, Transport Canada, As an Individual
I understand that.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
Just to follow up a little bit on your dialogue with Mr. Julian, I think what he tried to elicit from you was that somehow the system is falling apart, the whole regulatory scheme is being dismantled and being replaced with SMS. That's not how I understand Bill C-6.
We had someone from ICAO before us giving testimony, and that testimony was very clear that Canada is not only one of the leaders in civil aviation safety but is at the head of the pack in terms of ensuring that our civil aviation system is safe.
I sense your comments are directed at the half of the industry that isn't governed by professional associations. Is that correct?
4:15 p.m.
Flight Technical Inspector, Certification and Operational Standards, Transport Canada, As an Individual
Yes and no, and I would agree with the statement. I didn't read it. I'm not privy to it, but I've flown around the world a number of times, and I will admit that every time I re-entered Canadian air space, I did so with a sigh of relief. To say that by the year 2012 or 2015 we're going to have one accident a week, we're talking about around the world where they don't have a system like we have in Canada. They don't have air traffic control and the control we have. Literally, when I was still four or five hours from landing, I was saying I was glad to be back under this system. Around the world it's not the same as in North America. Europe and North America have a very good system. When people say we're very good, they're judging it based on that. I've flown in Africa. You read the charts and you're transmitting blind. You're not talking to anybody for hours at a time. It's the same in some places in the Caribbean and South America. It's not the same system.
But to say this is such a wonderful system doesn't make this system in Canada perfect. It just doesn't.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
The representative from ICAO who was here said that not only was Canada's system very safe, but in fact we are a leader. He went on to say that SMS is a huge step forward. I think he agreed it has to be implemented within the proper regulatory framework. That's what you're saying.
4:15 p.m.
Flight Technical Inspector, Certification and Operational Standards, Transport Canada, As an Individual
Absolutely.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
You're also saying that there are some bodies in place, some organizations in place within the industry that assist in that, but there are many pilots, and many inspectors and engineers who perhaps aren't governed by an association similar—
4:15 p.m.
Flight Technical Inspector, Certification and Operational Standards, Transport Canada, As an Individual
Correct.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
—to what some of the airline pilots are governed by. And you're recommending that this kind of...perhaps even mandatory membership be instituted. Is that right?
4:15 p.m.
Flight Technical Inspector, Certification and Operational Standards, Transport Canada, As an Individual
Yes, sir.
As I said, when I had finally done enough of flying around the world and seeing sights that I didn't want to go back and see, I transferred off one airplane to get on a domestic airplane so I could stay flying in Canada.
I totally agree with the ICAO statement. We have to make improvements. We can't let our guard down. And if this is what we were going to do, no, I wouldn't go there. We have to maintain a certain level of inspection, I believe.
I have a friend I flew with in one company in Bell. He went on to become a director of flight ops for another company in Toronto, and he jokingly said to me one time that...well, when we were flying, we operated a certain way. He said, “Well, those certain things that we did when we were operating together, Paul, we won't have to do anymore.” And I said, “Well, I hope not. I hope you can't get away with what you're suggesting.” And this was to somebody I had a lot of respect for.
I don't think we can let down our guard just because we're a very safe area in which to fly. We are. I think we need to work hard to maintain that, and that's what I think SMS will help do, but I think we have to be careful how we go about implementing it.
I hope I've answered your question without sounding--
