Evidence of meeting #55 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
My understanding is that it hasn't been. If you clarify that for Wednesday, I would--
5:40 p.m.
Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Well, if you tell me which one and what date. They've had audits ever since they've been in existence.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
I will get all that information to you. I'd appreciate getting it back on Wednesday.
I'd like you to steer us through this because--
5:40 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
I'm sorry, Mr. Julian. I believe you asked for information on the Air Transat--
5:40 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
--on the assessment we've made, and it was all provided.
5:40 p.m.
Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Are you talking about the last audit?
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
I'm talking about the safety audit, not the compliance with SMS.
5:40 p.m.
Director General, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Okay, then give me the date and which one and we'll get that to you. That's absolutely--
5:40 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
And our rule is that usually when we give the audit we give the corrective measures that were brought forward, for the fairness of the company.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
I want to come back to this, because you're certainly clarifying what would be protected by this proposed section and what is not. We appreciate that. But essentially, if we go back to the enforcement mechanism, we have a company--let's call it Air CN--and their mechanics, protected through the SMS process, systematically report violations in process, safety violations in the airline. The enterprise, the company management, doesn't document that. This is information received through the SMS process, and the company is simply not documenting it. I see from this process what the enforcement mechanism is, but I'd like you to lead us through it.
This has happened. The employees are protected. They're reporting systematic violations, safety violations of maintenance. What happens then? The company is not documenting it.
5:40 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
If Transport Canada is aware of a maintenance violation, it will investigate. If it investigates, then you apply the full chart you see here. If Transport Canada is not made aware of a violation, it will not investigate.
5:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Let's say Transport Canada is made aware. What happens then?
5:40 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Transport Canada is made aware of the alleged violation. You take the flow chart, the enterprise manager, because we have one person responsible from cradle to grave of a company. From the establishment of the company to the death of the company, if you want, there's one individual in charge and accountable. What the person will do is receive information, detection sources, conduct a preliminary event review. He would ask “Was there a contravention of the act, yes or no”? If no, there's no problem. If yes, the enterprise manager may request enforcement within 30 days to secure perishable evidence--there may be ATC tapes or things like that--so they secure the evidence.
“Was the contravention committed by person or enterprise governed by SMS?” If it's no, existing enforcement procedure... If it's yes, “Was the contravention internally reported”? They verify. The principal inspector verifies. If it was internally reported, that's fine, we continue. If not, we go immediately to the old enforcement process. We want the company to report.
5:45 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Okay.
If I am made aware of a maintenance violation by Air CN, and I check with them and it's not internally reported, well, we won't be very forgiving. We'll go straight to the old enforcement process and charge them and prosecute them.
If it is internally reported, now we'll check whether the contravention was committed intentionally by the enterprise. It could be one of those error-based violations. Or it could be obvious--it's a big overloading of an aircraft by 2,000 pounds--and it's obvious that they knew they were doing it. At that time, if we say it was intentional, again we get out of the SMS system and go to the normal enforcement process, and we're very harsh. And I can tell you that we have increased penalties.
If it is not intentional and it was internally reported, we are quite happy, because we know that it is a mature, responsible company that wants to look after business and make sure they fix the problem. So we will work with them to see whether they take corrective measures. If they do take corrective measures, we may agree or not agree with their corrective measures. We may go back and say that it is not enough for us and we need two more. If they give us what we want in terms of satisfaction with the corrective measures, we will carry on.
It asks if the nature of the contravention necessitates the enterprise submitting a plan. If yes, then you go to the enterprise measure requesting that the enterprise submit a plan. You review the plan, and if it's fine, that's the end of the process quality loop. We verify. If we're not satisfied, we take enforcement action again.
This is the SMS system at its best, because we can charge a company. We have all the tools, and we have all the increased penalties for enforcement. If they work well with us and take the proper corrective measures, that is what we want. We want to advance safety. We don't want to just shut down a company and come up with a $100,000 fine if it's not required.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, I have some follow-up questions to that.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
We have a situation in which all this information is through the SMS system. What you're saying is that when Transport Canada acts and gets additional information, then essentially the consequences can be brought in but the information obtained through SMS cannot be used to prosecute that airline. Am I not correct?
5:45 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
I can tell you that most of the time, in our experience with SMS companies, they call the enterprise manager. They call the principal inspector and say, “Listen, before you learn about it through the media or anybody else, I want to tell you that we screwed up yesterday and did this, and these are our proposed corrective measures.” This is the mentality now of the companies.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
That wasn't my question. I'm not concerned about the law-abiding companies. There are very many of them out there. I'm concerned about the renegade or rogue companies.
From what we've learned about rail safety, that is a legitimate concern. So I'll come back to my question. The information that comes through the SMS process can't be used against a company. Am I correct?
5:45 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
I don't have the internal information, because it's internal. But if the same employee comes to me outside the SMS and says that he or she has reported something three times to the employer and has asked him to do something, and he has not done something so the person is telling me, then yes, we can use this, and we'll do something with it.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
If I may interrupt, there doesn't seem to be too much willingness to move forward on this. We'll defer it until next day.
I want to move to Mr. Jean's motion. So I'm going to take a two-minute pause, and then we'll come back and deal with that.
Mr. Laframboise.
5:45 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
I only have a series of questions left, if that makes you feel any better.