Transport Committee on Nov. 27th, 2007

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Yes, and that's part of the Bioterrorism Act. There's a series of administrative penalties being put in place unilaterally. In fact, there's a discussion right now on another one that might be put in place.

Quickly, if I can, Mr. Chair, I would like to know if the operators are being scrutinized. During mad cow, for example, the truckers in my community had their McDonald's hamburgers confiscated crossing the border, even though it was American beef. They had sandwiches taken from them, and so forth.

[Cliff Mackay]

We run a very, very strict security process for our employees who are crossing borders.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

What about those who are...? We have, for example, some truckers who could have come from another country 20 years ago, five years ago, whatever. They're still Canadian citizens. They're fingerprinted, photographed, and so forth. Are you having the same type of problem with--

[Cliff Mackay]

Not to the same degree as the trucking industry, but we have for many years been very strict about our security clearance processes and that sort of thing. So in some respects, the standard was there well before the U.S. started to impose it.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Very quickly, I'm wondering, Mr. Mackay, if you would be able to table with the committee the list of your top 20 ancillary charges that have been charged by the railroads, specifically CN and CP, over the last years, along with that other request I had in relation to percentage of total income.

[Cliff Mackay]

Certainly, we'll follow up on that.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you very much.

Also, you asked the question as to why they plan on removing the substantial commercial harm test, and I have to tell you--practising law, I have seen that test before--it's very hard to meet the standard required and it's very expensive to prove the evidence itself, and I think you're aware of that. That's why I think the test has to go, quite frankly.

We have heard some evidence in relation to costs and I'm interested in finding out more. Of course, my understanding is that under the act, mediation is required before group FOA is even able to take place. I understand mediation costs somewhere over $100,000. I understand lawsuits would cost, probably, a minimum of $500,000, simply from my interest in the past--I don't know if that's the case, but I would suggest at least--and group final-offer arbitration could cost less than $10,000. Indeed, for smaller companies this is an awesome opportunity, especially because, as a group, they can pool their resources to, in essence, take on Goliath.

I'd like your comments on that.

[Cliff Mackay]

I'll ask my colleagues, since you're talking about legal costs and they're beyond me.

[Marc Shannon]

We do all sorts of mediations, most of them through the agency mediation service, which has proven to be excellent. I think our success rate is somewhere about 98% on those mediations, and both parties walk away satisfied.

Those can be done extremely cheaply, so there have been some small issues that we have done by conference call, and the whole mediation may last two to three hours and result in a resolution.

On bigger issues that demand more time, typically we go to the other party. The agency has certainly been more than willing to locate themselves where the complaining party is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I'll give the last comment and question to Mr. Volpe.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Generally, I guess what we've been wrestling with is the question always of both rates and service. It seems to me that everything comes back to the same question. As you said earlier on, if your rates have actually dropped in real terms by 31%, this certainly would not be reflected in the responses of the shippers who think they're not getting the service they would expect.

You've indicated that you're going to work fully with that review on services. I'm wondering whether--and this is a piggyback onto Mr. Jean's question--you have any problems with listing, first of all, the ancillary services for which you will charge, and then how you come up with those costs. Is that a problem for you at all?

[Cliff Mackay]

No, that sort of information is generally available to the shipper community anyway.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'm glad you said that, because I think the impression most of us have, and I don't presume to speak for anybody else, is that there is always a surprise element when it comes to paying for those services.

[Cliff Mackay]

All I can say is I don't know where you get that impression. If you're a shipper and you call a railway and ask for an ancillary service, you will get told what that costs.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

But if I expect my cars on Thursday and they don't show up until the following Wednesday....

[Cliff Mackay]

Well, that depends on the nature of the contract you signed with the individual carrier. It's very similar to any other commercial contract. If you pay a little more, you get a different kind of service.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'm sure we'll be talking again.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

I would like to thank our guests today. It has certainly been informative, and I know there's been a request for some information to flow, through you, Cliff. If you would send it to me through our office, we'll get it out to the membership.

I know Mr. Jean has made a commitment to have a document translated, and then it will be sent through my office to the members.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

My translation would be very poor indeed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

We'll expect it when it is translated. Other than that, thank you very much.

I do want to advise our committee that if you do have any amendments to Bill C-8 , I would ask that you get them to Mr. Doug Ward, legal counsel, as soon as possible. I'd like to say Thursday noon at the latest, and that way we can get the information back to you so we can be prepared for next Tuesday.

With that, and seeing no other questions, the meeting is adjourned.