Transport Committee on Dec. 11th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Go ahead, Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, panel, for coming out this morning.

My area may be a little different from what the conversation has been.... How many of the accidents that have been reported are on short lines?

I don't know how that inspection works--I'm new on the committee--but I'm wondering. We talk about the accident rate improving, but many of the short lines are privately owned. Do you actually go in, then, with the vehicles? You talk about CN and CP each using some type of vehicle of analysis, and you've got what I would call a prototype vehicle that you're bringing on. Is that correct?

[Luc Bourdon]

It's not a prototype. It's a vehicle that has been proven to be very effective. It's a pilot project for us.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

It's a pilot project. Thank you. Are there accident ratios on the short lines?

One of the reasons I ask the question is that some of the lines have sat idle for a while. Then a private entrepreneur comes along, sees value in that short line, and wants to pick it up. Often upgrades have to happen. What sort of inspection rate happens with that, and what is the accident rate on the short lines?

[Marc Grégoire]

Before we start, I should mention that for the most part, short lines are under provincial jurisdiction. They are not under federal jurisdiction per se. In many cases--and Luc can be more specific--we have signed MOUs with provinces to enable us to do the inspections on behalf of the provinces, but the short lines are, to start with, under provincial jurisdiction.

Luc, is it across the country?

[Luc Bourdon]

About 72% of the traffic is done by CN and CP, so most accidents are on CN and CP. We can provide you with an accurate number from TSB between short-line and--

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I'd be interested to know, because it would seem there could be a higher risk factor with that.

One of the things I'm wondering about is the history of accidents over the last 10 years. Maybe you've done that, and if you have, I'll go back. I don't think building trends over one year actually cuts it. I would like to have a report that takes us back 10 years, and I would like to know why--and you have touched on it--there is a difference in reporting standards between the United States and Canada.

[Marc Grégoire]

We will provide to you, as requested by Mr. Bell, the stats we have for the last 10 years.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you. One of the things Mr. Masse touched on was that in terms of tracks and crossings, the municipality gets billed every month for maintenance of tracks and maintenance of crossings. I can tell you, having been mayor of a municipality for a number of years, that I don't know where the letters go when they leave the municipality, but they never seem to land on the desk of anybody who actually does anything.

When I say that, I'm asking where the responsibility is. There is the rail line and Transport Canada, and the billing actually comes to the municipality for the crossing maintenance that never seems to happen. I don't know if the crossings become a safety issue for the rail line, but they certainly become a safety issue for the municipality, and I can venture to say that they will be a safety issue in areas with a rail line. We have often heard horrific stories of elderly or disabled people getting caught because of a lack of good maintenance.

Can you help me with that?

[Marc Grégoire]

First of all--Luc will continue--we don't have any program to award money to municipalities for maintenance, but we do have a contribution program for capital investments. We have contributions of approximately $7.5 million a year that we give to railway crossing improvements across the country, but no money would come on a yearly basis to the same municipality for regular maintenance.

On the regulatory side, I'll let Luc answer.

[Luc Bourdon]

Usually maintenance depends on who was there first. If the rail line was there first and then a community was built and spread on both sides of the track and they have to make a crossing, the maintenance would probably have to be paid by the municipality because they came afterward.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I'm talking about maintenance on county roads that have been there. In fact, some of them are provincial roads, though they are mostly county roads that don't get repaired, though we get a maintenance bill every month. I don't know where the authority or the push comes from to make CN or CP look after them in a more rigorous manner.

[Luc Bourdon]

Billing and that aspect would probably be under the CTA, the Canadian Transportation Agency; however, at Transport we're now writing some new crossing regulations and access control regulations, and in the crossing regulations the railway and the municipality will have the joint responsibility to make a safety assessment of each of the crossings and come up with whatever they need to make that crossing safer.

To answer your first question, I looked very quickly and I would say the short lines are about 12% of all derailments compared to CN and CP.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Watson.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of questions on your statistics. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but maybe you can provide them to me. You said in 2006 that the number of accidents, derailments, was down from 2005. Were they lower than 2004 and 2003?

You'll have to forgive me, I don't have that in front of me. I probably should.

[Marc Grégoire]

We have the 2002 figures with us. The accidents for all the railways, using the same period of January to October, in 2007 was the lowest in the last five years. The average was 1,441. In 2006 it was 1,410. The peak was 2005 at 1,523. For 2004 it was 1,459. For 2003 it was 1,429. For 2002 it was 1,383.

As I mentioned before, we'll provide the committee with the 10-year analysis of accidents.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Okay. That's the only question I have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

With that, I'll open the floor and take individual questions from each member.

I have Mr. Laframboise, Mr. Masse, Mr. Maloney, and Mr. Bell.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First, what is the name of the car used in the pilot project?

[Luc Bourdon]

It's called a solid track. If you wish, I can send you information about it.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I would love to see it.

[Luc Bourdon]

I'll send it to you.

[An hon. member]

Can we get it in French?

[Luc Bourdon]

I don't know if it is available in French, but I can send you the technical documentation; that won't be a problem.