Evidence of meeting #18 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Section 8 refers to other countries with HSR. The Americans do not yet have high speed rail.
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
Not yet, but it's—
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
I think there have been some interesting points raised. I follow Mr. Cannan's point very well, that this is in competition with other forms.
When you look at a new highway study—and I've been involved in these—there's an assessment of the cost to the user of the highway or the potential saving to the user of the highway. Is this part of what you're doing? Does the time saved by people enter into the equation?
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
The environmental and social impacts constitute one of the savings to be gained by doing a thorough social and environmental cost-benefit analysis.
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
It was done, but that was 15 years ago. Things that are preoccupations today were different then. We want to do a more in-depth analysis. Our own department, Transport Canada, did a study over the past couple of years, together with the provincial governments and the modes, the different private companies. It's a full-cost accounting of the true impact of the various modes of transportation on the environment, on society, and on the economy. In a way, it's quite revolutionary, because no country has ever done it. It's very difficult to do. You'll notice that in the terms of reference we mention that initiative. We are taking some of the principles and the measurements done in that initiative and using them in the assessments that we're doing here.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
I have an observation: this report was done in 1995 and never implemented. I find that very interesting.
In a paper that recently came to my office from the Canadian Urban Transit Association, they talk about transit vehicles, customer amenities, software, and systems. What new technologies available to us today might improve this study? I'm thinking of signals or new designs in railcars that have become available. Is there new steel production that would benefit the rail process now? Could you talk a bit about that?
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
I think the assessment of the technologies is going to get to that. There are so many systems today that weren't available 10 or 15 years ago. High-speed rail isn't that old, actually. It's about 40 years old, and when we started, there was probably only one kind of system. Now in Europe every country uses a different kind of high-speed system. In fact, in some countries they might even be using more than one kind.
Senior Strategic Policy and Special Project Officer, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
The interesting thing is that all the manufacturers now have whole families of technologies available, whereas before they offered only one choice. There were always debates over which company to choose. Now that's not a problem. Also, they are able to manufacture these machines on a much more customized basis.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
So you're saying that steel alloys would be available to work in conjunction with a certain type of car body?
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
Exactly. Even the track technologies and the signal systems have evolved significantly, and they are continuing to evolve. In fact, the previous U.S. government made a decision to require positive train control on the current freight systems that are also accommodating passenger systems. This is going to be quite revolutionary. We don't have those in North America right now. They're used in Europe. Doing this will allow for optimization of the shared infrastructure and elimination of many safety concerns. If you go ahead with this, you want to make sure you're getting the best technology, whether it's track, car, or locomotive.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
But does that provide opportunity for jobs in Canada? We have many of those technologies.
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
We would hope so, yes. Bombardier is a world leader. This could be an opportunity for them. We also have Alstom in this country. We have Siemens here as well. There are opportunities to come from something like this.
Liberal
Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I understand that more precise answers are being deferred to studies, which has been the fate of this project for some time, yet it would seem that most of the factors under consideration, most of the elements that are subject to change, are positive factors in favour of what's happening here. Previously there were many successful scenarios, certainly for portions of the project. The opportunity cost reflected in the discount rate has changed since then. What do you see that could be critically different on the negative side? There are so many things to consider, like the cost to other forms of transportation. For example, I assume that the airlines are economically fragile right now. A decision on this will have an impact. Are there other things that Transport would anticipate?
I would also like to know a little more about your ministry and your role in it. Have you been around for some time? For example, I would assume that this involves a strategic set of questions that the ministry would ordinarily be on top of. I understand you're going to be a part of the study, if it's done like the last one, and it seems to be in the request for proposal stage. Does the ministry have other documents, other policy options, that they've been providing? Is there a question of capacity within the ministry? I want your best advice about what's likely to be looked at, the pluses and maybe some of the minuses. How much has been dedicated to this study? How will it serve to advise the minister and the rest of us?
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
As to the negatives, one could be the reaction of some of the other modes to the impacts on them and their viability. What will this mean in the future for them? As with any other infrastructure project, we often underestimate the reaction of the people who are affected by it.
While most people would say it was fantastic, some people might still oppose trains operating in their backyards or going through their corridors. We can't underestimate these community impacts. That's part of the environmental assessment process that has to take place. We have to be cognizant of that. Many people today are well serviced by VIA Rail, and others would like to be. But the routing is going to go somewhere, which means that some people may not get the service. These people may also react negatively.
Liberal
Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I was hoping for any fundamentals on the viability of the project. I understand that for many of the details we must defer to the updated information, but I'm hoping and wondering whether on the broad strokes there is anything there. Perhaps you could make a quick response on the capacity issue.
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
There isn't anything that stands out at us right now as impossible.
On the capacity issue, I have a team, and Mr. Lawless is one of the members. There are others who are spending a huge chunk of their time on this, working with the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, who also have dedicated staff on the file and who are coaching or guiding the consultants as they do their work. We also have access to other resources within the department who have expertise in various areas, such as the other modes, or our economic analysis unit, which has done the full cost, or our environmental affairs unit.
I'm participating as well. I'm a member of the steering committee, as is my assistant deputy minister, and we have technical members on the committee participating in all steps of the way. So I think we have the capacity internally to take this on.
Liberal
Gerard Kennedy Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
Are you new to this project, or is this a standing capacity of the department?
Director General, Surface Transportation Policy, Department of Transport
I've been doing rail files now since 2001.
