Evidence of meeting #20 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was trains.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Okay. I do have a recommendation for that at some point--
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This country was built, of course, around a railway. It is the only country, I think, with a mythology around a railway, if you're familiar with Gordon Lightfoot's great Canadian Railroad Trilogy. That's rather unique.
The first public-private partnership in Canada, of course, was the CPR. I looked at the comments made back in 1998 that the private sector could not go it alone. This may have been done, Mr. Chairman--I'm not on this committee--but I'd be curious about the witnesses' comments with regard to a policy framework.
We keep saying we've fallen behind. We know the economic advantages and we know the environmental advantages, etc. If you were constructing a policy framework to present to government, what key elements in terms of the objectives you're looking for would help in this endeavour? What outcomes are we looking for? What are the key instruments to achieve those objectives?
Director, Mobility Division, Siemens Canada Limited
I'll take the first crack at this.
I think it would have to be a long-term vision and policy that would span more than one politician's term in office, to be blunt about it, because it just can't be accomplished in that timeframe. Ashley referred to an average of ten years from idea to build, and that's a pretty reasonable assumption.
So it would have to be a long-term vision, but it has to be supported by a continued long-term financing policy that is sustainable, and not by a budget every year that may or may not support it and can be changed from time to time. It has to be something that's basically in concrete for the next 20 years, and every year a significant amount of money has to be put towards building this network. It will not happen overnight. It will be done over several phases. It's a difficult policy to put together and also to get passed by all the people who need to participate.
Vice-President, Alstom Transport
Maybe I'll add some more thoughts on that.
So you've come up with the long-term vision. You say the long-term vision is to create an integrated rail transportation network, high-speed, that will run in major corridors and then will be extended as demand can be justified. That also means you have to look at it in terms of a strategic transportation infrastructure perspective, the same as you do with marine, highways, and airports. So it has to be put on the same footing as those major building blocks at the federal level.
You can't be thinking it's just trains, so we won't worry about that; it's like a little operating company, VIA. You really have to say no, this is on the same basis as our national highway program, so it should have the same level of intensity, same level of funding on an annual basis. If you look at what you're spending on highways and compare that to what you're spending on rail, there's absolutely no comparison.
The other thing is that you have a P3 approach on capital programs right now, on major infrastructure. There's no reason why you can't do that in this area as well. It fits very well. The risks to you as the project owner are very large if you try to micro-manage all the little pieces, while if you can capture that risk in a large contract and you pass that off to somebody else.... Look at OPG and how much they're spending on this bloody tunnel. They have a construction program, but they didn't transfer that geo-technical risk to the private sector. I'm not saying we all want that geo-technical risk. That's not actually our field. That's for the contractors, the civil guys.
I think you have to think in those terms—how it fits into the broader federal transportation structure—and then build from there. This also fits into what the other overlapping elements are in this. There is environmental and safety, and really those are big things. There are greenhouse gas emissions. I don't see any money for greenhouse gas emissions from the Ministry of the Environment focused on trains. There's nothing.
Is there an incentive even for CN and VIA Rail to move away from diesel to electric? I don't see anything in that area, even for them to study this in a serious way. Yet they're still going to have the same issues.
Regarding the standards we use here, we look at the Americans and say this FRA is everything. In fact, FRA is very interesting and it meets the needs of the Americans, but the rest of the world follows the European standards. European standards, if anything, have higher levels of safety because they take a different approach. Instead of saying everything is based on the physical limitations of vehicles when they have collisions, they say it's about how we can reduce risks, how we structure it so there aren't collisions. They take a more risk-management approach. You have to look at risk management from a rail safety perspective.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question goes to Mr. Larouche.
You mentioned the importance of updating the Lynx Project study. In fact, the governments of Quebec and Ontario have commissioned a study, and the feds are going to contribute too.
Is updating everything that has happened since 1998 going to meet your needs, to answer your questions? Have you had the chance to familiarize yourself with the invitation to tender to see if it is going to achieve the desired result?
Director, Marketing and Product Planning, Bombardier Transportation, Bombardier
Thank you, Mr. Laframboise.
To my knowledge, an update of the tripartite study from 1992-1993 is planned, but not a review of the Lynx Project.
Bloc
Director, Marketing and Product Planning, Bombardier Transportation, Bombardier
Before coming here today, I had the pleasure of re-reading the many volumes of the study. I can tell you that they contain a lot of very good material, even though it of course needs to be updated. I think that the study would be useful.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
There is an aspect of ridership and all that. I always think of the example of Spain, where they ventured a little further in looking at future potential. They got exceptional results from their development. Perhaps we have to be a little daring. Looking at the customers is important for you.
Director, Marketing and Product Planning, Bombardier Transportation, Bombardier
Yes, that is the fundamental point on which the design of any system must be based. But I do not claim that the Lynx Consortium went as far as our Spanish friends did with their study. It was simply an update of the tripartite study in which several companies came together to see how they could create such a system. They looked at a number of details, such as schedules, organizational and operational structures, and so on. It would be useful to update that study.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
When all is said and done, the objective is to entice customers...
Director, Marketing and Product Planning, Bombardier Transportation, Bombardier
We have to be able to bring together the levels of service; for example, the frequency of trains, the length of trips, the operating costs and the ticket prices, in order to achieve a balance and to create an economically viable project.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
The Spanish went a little further in studying the potential.
Director, Marketing and Product Planning, Bombardier Transportation, Bombardier
They have had very good results.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
The Americans have looked at Montreal, among other things in the east... In Canada, we do not seem to have considered the potential in the United States, if there is any.
Director, Marketing and Product Planning, Bombardier Transportation, Bombardier
I mentioned that the situation has evolved since the Lynx Project or the tripartite study. There has been an evolution in the States. The viability of the project can only be enhanced by having some strategic interconnection points with the American network.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Exactly. Developing a network is based on studies. My impression is that, around the world, market analyses are done before objectives are set, and I understand that perfectly. But you have to have solid objectives in order to get the desired results.
Of the conclusions in the 1995 study, the most important seems to be not to affect airline competitors adversely, and such. That is what jumped out at me. As I understand it, increasing traffic and using a transportation system absolutely does not affect other systems adversely.
Director, Marketing and Product Planning, Bombardier Transportation, Bombardier
There have been other examples of high speed rail projects in the United States. In Texas, for example, air carriers managed to find a technicality in the method of financing and they scuttled the project. Some years later, there was the FOX project in Florida. Our team found a way to partner with air carriers. The train from Miami airport could take passengers from the airport to other destinations that the air carriers were perhaps less interested in. We took the longer view and teamed up with air carriers rather than making enemies out of them.
