Transport Committee on Nov. 16th, 2009

[Helena Borges]

Currently, both governments are interested in conducting further studies and bringing them up to date, as are we. The studies will allow us to know what the costs are and to see whether or not it is possible to involve the private sector in this kind of project. According to the 1995 studies, the various governments would contribute 75% of the capital cost of the system, and the private sector—in a public-private partnership—could be interested in contributing up to 25% or 30% of the costs.

However, the project was not carried out and this is speculation.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Would you like to finish the question period?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Mario Laframboise]

Yes, I will do so.

You are aware that Quebec City carried out a study with other cities, and that the French National Railways expressed interest in a public-private partnership. Are you aware of that? Are you familiar with this study?

[Helena Borges]

Yes, we have a copy of that study.

We are in the process of preparing a study with a German company that controls the German railways. This company is part of the consortium that is carrying out our studies. We are aware of that.

However, there are other companies. I believe you have invited representatives from Bombardier or from SNC-Lavalin. There are others. Many have expressed interest in this regard.

If the government decided to undertake this kind of project, we should invite the private sector companies through a request to see if they would be interested in getting involved.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Mario Laframboise]

Thank you.

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Witnesses, it's good to see you again.

[A voice]

Thank you. It's nice to be here.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

We've heard from promoters of the Alberta high-speed rail system. They came out with numbers that on the surface appeared to be quite a bit better than those in the corridor. They claimed that there were a lot fewer problems in developing a dedicated line in Alberta. They were well acquainted with the number of level crossings and the land assembly issues. Have you had a chance to review that particular project in any detail?

[Helena Borges]

We participated with the Government of Alberta back in 2005, I think it was, in doing their first group of studies, when we contributed $100,000 towards that effort. At that time, the numbers that came out of that study were a little bit different from what we understand the current numbers to be.

The studies looked at a couple of options in terms of the potential system they could use there. I'm assuming that the numbers you're referring to are probably what I'll call equivalent to a higher-speed system using the current corridor.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

No, the dedicated....

[Helena Borges]

It's the dedicated?

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Absolutely. They were only--

[Helena Borges]

Okay. What was the number they provided? Because the number we heard for dedicated high-speed was fairly high. It was up to $18 billion.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Okay. No, that's considerably higher than the number presented here, I believe.

[Helena Borges]

Yes. The lower range, which is probably what you're thinking about, was about $3 billion to $4 billion.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

That's what they said.

[Helena Borges]

That's what they said, but that would be using the current line. It would be dedicated for passenger service, but it wouldn't necessarily be a high-speed service in the context of what we're looking at for the high-speed rail equivalent to the systems they have in Europe. That would be higher.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Yes. Well, that does make a lot more sense, but they had certainly indicated that they felt the costs were considerably less than that. I'd have to go back to the minutes to get the precise details, but that was my understanding. It's good to get that clarification.

Are you engaged right now in any elimination of level crossings in your investment portfolio in the country?

[Helena Borges]

As I mentioned earlier, we've invested in quite a few grade separations in British Columbia and actually throughout western Canada. We're doing some work now in Calgary. We've announced some projects in Edmonton. We've done Saskatoon, Regina, and Winnipeg, and we've also done Toronto, through GO Transit and with VIA Rail as well. The GO Transit investment--

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

What are the costs running like?

[Helena Borges]

It depends. If you look at a fairly heavily utilized four-lane road in Toronto, or for that matter in Windsor, as we've done a couple in Windsor.... The one in Windsor, which is a four-lane road in a somewhat industrial area, cost us over $50 million for a grade separation. The ones in Vancouver, depending, again, on the level of road activity, are averaging between $40 million and $50 million.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

What about out in the countryside, out of the urban areas and in the open areas?

[Helena Borges]

If they're in the countryside, and again, depending on whether or not they need to be grade separated.... The one we're doing in Vancouver with the province, which is what I'll call a more rural kind of grade separation, is costing about $20 million or $21 million.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Are you intending to bring a number of level crossings together at that grade separation?

[Helena Borges]

In fact, in Vancouver that's exactly what happened. We did a whole corridor analysis and identified which ones actually needed to be grade separated.

Because you can't be grade separating all over the place, what we did was selectively pick the roads that were busiest, and we're grade separating those. A couple of them are being closed and a couple of them are being connected through what are called access roads that are sort of parallel to the rail track, and then you go to the next busiest road.

So not in all cases do they need to be separated, and you have to be wary of how many grade separations you're building one right after the other. They're very expensive.