Evidence of meeting #12 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aviation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Capt Tim Manuge
Mr. Bevington, we have a white paper coming out on security, which we'll submit to the committee for your review.
Capt Tim Manuge
I think we have a number of low-cost solutions to the security side.
Here's an interesting fact; we sit on the AGAS committee, the advisory group to aviation security, which is hosted three times a year under Transport Canada's auspices. In that, they've had Revenue Canada come in to talk about the security fee that's collected. They can't tell us where the security fee goes: it goes into general coffers.
If we were actually able to have it isolated out from the general revenue coffers and kept on its own, we'd probably have a better understanding of exactly all the costs, where they're going, and how much that security fee will pay toward the resolution of any issues we have in implementing new programs.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Yes.
I heard some conflicting testimony about cockpit doors on aircraft, whether they are truly secure. We've heard evidence that they can stand up to a grenade blast. I've also heard that security forces have shown how they can kick them in.
What's your opinion on the nature of the hardened cockpit doors on aircraft?
Capt Tim Manuge
Ideally, the security doors as they are right now--the “fortress doors”, which are what they're referred to--are made with Kevlar, in essence to stop a bullet from entering into the flight deck area and harming or injuring any pilots. The ideal situation, as El Al has done, would be to establish a secondary door. Currently, that's being explored with the FAA in the United States. We sit on the panel exploring that aspect.
The ideal, again, unfortunately relates to cost. If it were implemented or approved, that would be a good reduction of security risk. If we knew where the security fee was going, then that security fee could pay for that cost.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Once you secure the cockpit, don't you agree that then the risk assessment for an aircraft changes completely?
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
No question; so if you then have small metal objects, the use of scanners to direct...and we've had evidence they're good for identifying ceramic knives, those sorts of things, but then their effectiveness is reduced, because of course there's no threat to the aircraft because there's no access to the cockpit.
Is that not the reality of it?
Capt Tim Manuge
It is, sir, you're right. And we like to look at it as a layered approach. By establishing certain layers, if one layer fails, you have another layer that will back it up.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
But remember, we're also talking about trying to reduce the cost of our system appropriately, so that it works for us.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
If we're doing things that are redundant because other things have been accomplished within the aircraft, is that not an area where we should be looking at readjusting the security envelope?
Capt Tim Manuge
I couldn't agree with you more. Again, though, I'd bring back the issue of where the security fee is being allocated. If we don't know how much is in the bank account, how do we know how to set up the budget to be able to address the layers of that security that we want to address?
Capt Barry Wiszniowski
Sir, let me answer the first part of your question, about where we should spend. Canada is not compliant with ICAO on the flight and duty time issue.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Yes. I agree entirely on that one.
When it comes to SMS, we had an incident last October with Air Canada in which they were diverted from Toronto to Winnipeg. A number of regulations were under question there: hot refueling, de-icing, these types of things.
What enforcement action was taken by Air Canada after that event occurred?
Capt Paul Strachan
Thanks, Mr. Bevington.
We talked a little bit earlier in this room about industrial agendas. I won't delve into that, but I will say that I am personally familiar with the incident in question. I presume that you are as well. An aircraft was operating quite late in the evening into Winnipeg, and the runway became disabled by another aircraft, which made the airport unusable. The diversion to Grand Forks, while not ideal, in and of itself is not an issue; that's standard operating procedure.
NDP
Capt Paul Strachan
Well, clearly, that is one of the takeaways out of the SMS investigation afterwards, to examine the process of assigning alternates to aircraft.
We do it based on a risk assessment as well; it may not be a scientific one. But there's no reason at that time of night, given the weather conditions as they were, to expect that the Winnipeg airport would be closed. An aircraft becoming disabled on the runway is a pretty unusual circumstance.
Once the aircraft is diverted to Grand Forks, North Dakota, several issues come into play.
By fluke, the aircraft had departed with an unserviceable auxiliary power unit. Now it was sitting on the ground in Grand Forks with the inability to deliver power to the aircraft for the refueling process without some internal source of power. At that point, it means an engine, because that's all that's left.
Normally what would happen is that our crews would disembark the passengers and we'd carry on in normal fashion. However, in this instance there was a U.S. Customs and Border security guard standing at the bottom of the jetway saying “There's absolutely no way on earth that anybody is getting off that aircraft right now”. So it's a sort of a Texas standoff from that.
It's interesting to note that the manufacturer of the aircraft, the A320, in fact publishes a procedure for “engine on” refueling. It's not incorporated into our normal operating procedures; however, faced with the situation they were faced with, I think our crew did an exemplary job of operating as safely as possible in a situation that almost nobody could contemplate. You can't write regulations for every possible situation that's going to occur. In the circumstances, as they always do, our crews did an excellent job in the situation with which they were faced.
There has been some speculation—
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
[Inaudible--Editor]...enforcement action--afterwards, I mean.
Capt Paul Strachan
As I said, it all comes out of the SMS system.
Now, if those results, before they're even finalized, are going to make their way to places such as the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, then that's going to go back to what my colleague was referring to before: undoing the advancement of the safety culture in this industry by something on the order of about 30 to 40 years, for sure.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Thank you.
The bells are ringing, which signifies a vote.
My comment would be that it seems ironic that any aircraft on Canadian soil or over Canadian ground would have to go to the U.S. as the alternate airport, rather than to Regina, as Mr. Bevington said. It just strikes me as odd that we would send them south instead of further west or east to land on Canadian soil, where passengers can disembark and not be inconvenienced in the way that they were.
Capt Paul Strachan
It can be because of issues such as the operating hours of the airport, the weather conditions forecast at Brandon, Regina, or Saskatoon. So many variables can come into play. It's difficult to....
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Yes, but protocol would suggest that it should be a Canadian airport as first choice, at least in my mind.
Capt Paul Strachan
That would normally be the first choice. In fact, Winnipeg is unique in that sense, because it is kind of isolated.