Transport Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number 31. Our orders of the day are pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, May 25, 2010, Bill C-20, An Act to amend the National Capital Act and other Acts.

Joining us today from the Department of Transport, we have Monsieur Simon Dubé, director of portfolio management, crown corporation governance.

When we adjourned the last meeting we were debating a BQ amendment to clause 3 by Monsieur Nadeau, and because he's not here and I know he wants to participate, I'm going to ask the committee that we stand clause 3 for now and we'll move to clause 4.

I'd like to ask the committee that we stand clause 3 until Mr. Nadeau returns, and we'll move on with the other clauses and move forward. Clause 3 is where we were left debating. We were talking about the number of people on the committee. If everybody is good with that, we'll move to clause 4.

(Clause 3 allowed to stand)

(On clause 4)

Does everyone have the amendment package? We do have extras if you don't have them.

There are no amendments to clause 4.

(Clauses 4 to 7 inclusive agreed to)

(On clause 8)

We have a Liberal amendment.

Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Clause 8 is the question of the...different committees or subcommittees have been removed in the submission. We would like to add clause 8.1:

There shall be an Executive Committee of the Commission consisting of the Chairperson, the Chief Executive Officer and three other members to be appointed by the Commission, at least one of whom shall be from the Province of Quebec and at least one of whom shall be from the Province of Ontario.

The reason why we are doing this is the Quebec government is absolutely worried that, whether it be the executive committee or other subcommittees, major decisions could be taken without any participation from any Quebeckers. We've already had an amendment accepted to include...this is the one Mr. Nadeau is interested in, clause 3, which has been postponed. But we would insist that there be an executive committee composed of at least one member for the Province of Quebec and one member for the Province of Ontario. Ideally, we would have other committees, or subcommittees, if you want, and we would make sure that there is one Quebecker on every one of these committees or subcommittees. But for the time being, we would be satisfied with having an executive committee consisting of these different people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Are there comments?

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I thought there was an executive committee that was appointed or formed at one time, in relation to the commission itself. What's the position of the department in relation to an executive committee?

[Simon Dubé, Director, Portfolio Management, Crown Corporation Governance, Department of Transport]

Currently the National Capital Act provides for the executive committee, and what's being proposed in Bill C-20 is to remove that specific committee and leave the commission to decide on what committee it needs to undertake its business. I'll just note that over the past number of years, despite the provisions in the National Capital Act for an executive committee, there hasn't been any such committee meeting formally.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Do you have a comment, Mr. Jean?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Yes. Why is the proposal to leave it that way? My understanding, from being briefed sometime ago on this, if memory serves me correctly, was that the format for the executive committee was there. However, in essence, they had never met over a period of two or three years because in fact it was difficult to get all the members of the board, or something like that.

[Simon Dubé]

Yes, exactly. The NC Act is an old act. In this provision, and in other cases as well, the executive committee was useful in the period when it was difficult to get all the board members all together, especially if you had board members from across the country. Now with new technologies, it's easy for the board to call an ad hoc meeting if they need to, and they can do that by teleconference, or even by video conference now. So that's why the need for a smaller group of board members forming an executive committee isn't as important as it used to be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to read subsection 9(1) of the National Capital Act, 1985. That is what is being referred to. The subsection reads as follows:

9. (1) There shall be an Executive Committee of the Commission consisting of the Chairperson, the Chief Executive Officer and three other members to be appointed by the Commission, at least one of whom shall be from the Province of Quebec.

A little later, subsection 9(3) deals with other committees, including a National Capital Planning Committee. It was all necessary because the intent was for all the various topics to be dealt with by committees with in-depth knowledge of those topics.

Now we are kind of taking a step backwards but saying that we are moving with the times. The NCC has an executive committee. In our Parliament Hill context, all our committees have steering committees so that everything does not have to be discussed at the full committee. Many discussion items are handled at those steering committee meetings.

The National Capital Commission has an executive committee and we would like it to have a member from Quebec and at least one member from Ontario. They would be able to deal with all kinds of matters much more easily and simply than if the whole committee were there. Just imagine! If they had to have a meeting to decide the topics for an upcoming discussion, with four people in an office, three by teleconference, and so on, it would be hell. It would so be much easier to have an executive committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

The difficulty is that I just don't understand what the purpose of the committee is going to be. It's not laid out.

The NCC witness before us has testified that this was actually already set up in the legislation before, and it hasn't been utilized because they call all the members. So I don't really understand (a) why we would force them to have a cumbersome part of the act that they don't use and they had the opportunity to use before; and (b), why we don't just let them decide what committee they have to form to do specific work, whether it be an executive committee to decide on appointments, or whether it be a committee to decide on new properties they want to buy or new properties they want to move forward on.

I just don't know why we wouldn't leave it to the committee, as a whole, because that's, in essence, what your proposal is, and, quite frankly, it hasn't worked in the past. Is that fair to say, Mr. Dubé?

[Simon Dubé]

Yes. As I mentioned before, the National Capital Commission hasn't used the executive committee provided in the act because I guess they didn't need it. They were able to conduct their business through the full board or using advisory committees, as required, on specific subject matters.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Chair, if I understand it, then, with the new forum we're proposing, with the new legislation leaving out the executive committee appointment, that still allows the board itself to appoint one, if they deem it necessary for a specific purpose. Is that fair to say?

[Simon Dubé]

Absolutely. If they feel at some point that they need an executive committee, they could create it and decide what that committee can do.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Great. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dubé, the National Capital Act dates back to 1985. That is 25 years. You do not look to me as if you are in your fifties. How long have you been at the National Capital Commission?

[Simon Dubé]

Actually, I work at Transport Canada.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Were you told that this National Capital Commission committee has never met since 1985?

[Simon Dubé]

I cannot actually say whether it has been since 1985, but it is a number of years.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That is my question. They were created in 1985; the executive committee and the other committees, I mean. Now Mr. Jean is making you say that it has never been used.

[Simon Dubé]

Before we decided on this amendment, we did go through a process of checking. According to the people with the corporate memory going back a number of years, no one could remember this committee being active or used.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

When does that corporate memory go back to?

[Simon Dubé]

More than 10 years, but I could not tell you to which exact year.