Transport Committee on Feb. 10th, 2011

[Luc Bourdon]

The first thing we would do in your example, if it's a track issue, would be to deal with the risk immediately. The fine would not be a condition that you pay and you get away with it. The first thing you get, if there's a problem with the track, would be a 10-mile-an-hour slow order on 50 miles, let's say, which would severely penalize them in terms of the fluidity of the network, which we're doing now.

On top of that, they would have to pay a fine. If for whatever reason it's been three or four times that we've been going after that railway and we keep finding stuff, they would pay the fine. So the fine would never replace some measure we would take.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Who are we hurting when we put a 50-mile slow speed because we can't get the railway to fix one small piece of track?

[Luc Bourdon]

The railway.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

And not the customers?

[Luc Bourdon]

The railway usually—

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Not the people who are trying to get their goods to the market or to the port in Vancouver in a decent time, or the ship that's waiting for them there?

[Luc Bourdon]

You've got a good point there, but the thing is that it affects the capacity on their network. It affects their on-time delivery. Our experience is that usually they get on it pretty quickly because they need those cars at the port. They want to get the empties back. Usually, what we see is that they act pretty quickly on it.

From time to time, they may decide to live with a slow order for short distances, but usually on the main line, where there's heavy traffic, they'll be repaired pretty quickly.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

When you impose the penalty, what does that mean? Can you go through that a little bit more in detail?

You put a penalty on for a particular lack of action; the penalty is paid. I notice that in the act it seems to say that when the penalty is paid, immediately there's no further action taken. Is that correct? Or is there some process?

If we haven't fixed the situation for which the penalty is put in place—

[Luc Bourdon]

The first thing is that the administrative monetary penalty will be defined by a regulation. We don't have the enabling power in the act right now.

All of what you're asking me right now will probably be determined at the time we're putting the regulation together. What will it entail? How much will they be charged and for what?

Right now, assuming we ever get the bill passed...then we'll have to develop the regulations. This is where you will find what you're asking me right now.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Is there any parliamentary oversight to those regulations that you're going to be establishing after this act is passed?

[Luc Bourdon]

At this time, no.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Is that a common practice with Transport Canada, not to provide any parliamentary oversight?

[Luc Bourdon]

I can only speak for rail safety.

We've got the rule-making process in place. We don't make a lot of regulations. We usually go through a rule, which is not a statutory instrument.

For the few regulations we have made, to my knowledge, no, they were not subject to parliamentary oversight.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

So going to all these regulations is quite a change for you?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Bevington, I have to stop you there.

[Luc Bourdon]

It will be an increase in workload for sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Mr. Mayes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the department for being here and the work you've done on this act to make our railroads safer.

I live in British Columbia. The community I live in is on the main CP line. We have, on a good day, 37 trains a day going through our community. The rail goes right along Shuswap Lake, which is where people enjoy recreation and it is also from where we draw our water. So rail safety is a big issue in my community.

One of the things I want to discuss is the rail operating certificate. There is a compulsory emergency response plan that the rail companies have to submit. I'm just going to give you an example. In our community, one of the CP locomotives went off the track and started leaking fuel toward the lake. We have our own regional emergency response plan. They were able to go out and secure the area. They were the first responders, the first ones there.

When they put these plans together, has there been consultation with the provinces and regional governments to incorporate their plans with the plans within the operating certificate?

[Luc Bourdon]

Currently, as I mentioned, the railway operating certificate will be defined by a regulation, so we don't know yet what that will entail. We have to consult with all our stakeholders to get the input from companies, unions, on what they'd like to see in it.

On the environmental side and what they currently have in place, basically, other than a certain environmental assessment infrastructure project, we don't have much in the Railway Safety Act that deals with environment. When it comes to dangerous goods, it's under the dangerous goods act and the dangerous goods directorate at Transport Canada.

I know there are usually multiple jurisdictions when these things happen, where the federal, provincial, and municipal governments may show up, so I don't quite have an answer for that at this time.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

One of the issues that I think I'd like to take note of is that in British Columbia, the taxing authority was taken away from local government on the rights-of-way. Municipalities lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax revenue, but they're providing an emergency response plan for the railroad. So when they put their response in the operating certificate, I think it would be incumbent on the railroads to work with the local government, also maybe even to fund some of those costs for the planning process and the people who do that work.

[Luc Bourdon]

That's probably something to consider once we're at the regulation level.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Right.

How many miles of track do they have on the main lines of CP and CN?

[Luc Bourdon]

All together, in Canada we're talking about approximately 48,000 miles of track.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

That's a lot of track.

What about the track that will not be under this jurisdiction? Do you have any estimates on that?

[Luc Bourdon]

Pardon me?