Transport Committee on March 10th, 2011

[Luc Bourdon]

Yes. Actually, it wouldn't be the word “pressure”; the way it works is that we can inspect for compliance but we can't enforce. If we inspect one of the urban transit authorities and we find something is in non-compliance with the rules or the regulations, we have to go to CN and CP and impose a corrective measure on them. They in turn go back to the urban transit authority and get it repaired. So there's no real accountability there.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Okay, I understand it.

Wouldn't that be more complicated than dealing directly with them? Ultimately we're going to get the same result, assuming that CN and CP follow through. With the provisions in this law, they have to have a safety officer who is legally responsible. That person is going to be very, very inspired to make sure that all the subcontractors do it.

[Luc Bourdon]

They become accountable.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

I don't get why the urban transit authorities are so opposed, other than.... It doesn't make sense what they're pushing for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I have Mr. Julian, Mr. Watson, and then I'm going back to Monsieur Laframboise.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have two questions for Mr. Laframboise about his amendment. I apologize, but I am at a bit of a disadvantage because I wasn't here for the testimonies on this matter.

Which urban train operators requested this exemption? I think I have a good understanding of the two-year process. Why do the urban trains not want to adhere to this two-year transition process?

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

First, these operators, such as the AMT, the Agence métropolitaine de transport, report to the Government of Quebec, just like all metropolitan transport agencies report to the provinces. So it is wrong to say that there aren't any safety standards.

What you are telling us, Mr. Bourdon, is frightening. You are saying that there are no safety standards.

[Luc Bourdon]

No, that isn't what we said.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

These people must report to their authorities, which are the provinces, and they have their own safety standards.

[Luc Bourdon]

We never said that they don't have safety standards. What we said is that these people must comply with the standards of Canadian Pacific and Canadian National. They do not have their own standards. They are required to follow the rules that have been approved by the minister responsible for Canadian National and Canadian Pacific.

Right now, we are talking about a matter of accountability. When something doesn't work the way it should, we cannot blame the group at fault, we need to blame another one.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

But you cannot blame them for the simple reason that they didn't ask for your permission. They got their authorization from the authorities responsible. As you said, they must respect the standards of CN and CP, and if they have a problem later, they resolve it with CN and CP.

[Luc Bourdon]

When these agencies operate on federal tracks, clearly, we can have authority over them. Everyone who is currently operating on those tracks will be required to have an operating certificate.

To answer the question you asked a little earlier, if the act is amended and we have the power to adopt the regulations, we must first, as part of our internal process, sit down with all the stakeholders, including the Agence métropolitaine de transport, GO Transit and the West Coast Express. Mr. Julian had asked for more information about those three agencies.

Once the regulations have been adopted, people have two years to comply with them. So, everything is in place so that people can be consulted properly, and they can have an opportunity to share their concerns with us. Once the regulations are in effect, we give people two years to submit what needs to be submitted.

The regulations also make it possible to adapt the operating certificate to their type of operations and even to exempt them completely. For example, if the three commuter transporters show that they use very good rules and that they use the North American criteria of APTA in the United States, they might be exempted from having an operating certificate because reassurances have been made. In fact, we have spoken with them, and we see that everything is in place to ensure that this works.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

That's not what I was told. That's why this poses a problem. These people are asking us for exemptions because they don't want to be required to produce another certificate. They are already subject to their legislation. They already have safety standards. They must be able to comply with the safety standards of CN and CP. They do so already, but they are imposing on them the requirement of an additional certificate. That's what they don't want. You could exempt them from it, just like you could require them to have it, just like you could take away their certificate. Is that true or not?

[Luc Bourdon]

It's a matter of safety. We know that their operations are safe, but this allows us to have this dialogue with them. When they operate on federal tracks, they must comply with all the rules and all the regulations.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Who asked you to do that? Was it the railway companies?

[Luc Bourdon]

Not at all. I can tell you that there was…

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I'm sorry, I just missed that exchange. It wasn't caught, and that part was very important. Mr. Laframboise asked a question and it was answered before I could hear it in translation.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Who asked you to subject them to this standard?

[Luc Bourdon]

The group of experts.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Who was in this group of experts?

[Luc Bourdon]

You were there at the time. There was Mr. Doug Lewis, Mr. Martin Lacombe, Mr. Pierre-Marc Côté and Mr. Gary Moser. They presented a report to you. You were there; I was there too.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

That's right.

[Luc Bourdon]

They made 56 recommendations. During the discussions, they realized that there were no previous safety criteria for operating a railway in Canada imposed by the department or approved by the department. You go to the Canadian Transportation Agency, you get a certificate of fitness, and you start operating. But we have seen in the past that these people sometimes can't operate very effectively. So, from that, they determined that it was…

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

This isn't the case of metropolitan transportation agencies, which must obtain authorization from their provincial government.

[Luc Bourdon]

It's like any other railway company in any other province. Between 50 and 60 railway companies will be affected by this. When these companies, which have always operated on provincial tracks, arrived at federal tracks, they had to comply with federal legislation. Now they are going to have to provide us with a certificate that will show what applies to them.

During the consultations conducted by the group of experts, some of these agencies asked the group for permission to make their own rules and to be able to request exemptions to certain rules. When they travel on federal tracks, the only way to do that is to subject them to our regulations. They can't get what they are asking for, unless they ask CN and CP for it. In some cases, these railways are going to give it to them. Now, they are going to be able to do it and have the rules adapted to their type of operations, for example, train inspections.