Transport Committee on March 30th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Good morning, everybody.

I regret that we're not starting exactly on time. We do have guests here today, and it's important that we move forward.

I need approval from the committee. We've had a request for a media person to attend with cameras. Normally that request is made 24 hours in advance. It wasn't, so we need approval from the committee to allow that to happen.

Is everybody okay with that?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Okay.

Secondly, I want to read something into the record, more just for the history. It will allow the committee to refer back to the reports from previous sessions. Basically, we would refer to the motion that the evidence and documentation received by the committee in the second session of the 40th parliament, the study we did on safety management systems, be allowed to be brought forward as part of the discussion.

Okay, with that everything is good.

We welcome our guests today to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying aviation safety and security.

Joining us today are Mr. Marc Grégoire, assistant deputy minister of safety and security; Ms. Nicole Girard, director of policy and regulatory services, civil aviation; Mr. Don Sherritt, director, standards, civil aviation; and, by request, Ms. Yaprak Baltacioglu asked if she could....

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

We received the first notice of meeting, and Mr. Martin J. Eley, Director General of Civil Aviation, was supposed to be present. Yesterday at 2:49 p.m., we received a revised notice of meeting, which indicated that Mr. Martin J. Eley would not be present. I asked Madam Clerk why and she said he had to attend a conference in Montreal. I also asked Mr. Grégoire why, and he told me that Mr. Eley was sick.

This is important, Mr. Chair, because on the issue of pilot fatigue, Mr. Eley made some comments to the CBC regarding the fact that Transport Canada had not taken into account the recommendations of a report, a study conducted in 2001. So I would like to know why Mr. Eley is not here today, and I would like him to be summoned to a future meeting, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I'll defer to the deputy minister for response, please.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu, Deputy Minister, Department of Transport]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the member's concern. Mr. Eley would have been here if he could. He's in the hospital and won't be out for a while. We will keep the committee informed as to when his health will be fine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Monsieur Laframboise.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Okay. We'll open the meeting.

I understand there will be a brief presentation and some comment, and then we'll get to questions as quickly as possible.

Madam Deputy Minister, proceed, please, and thank you for attending today.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Again, thanks to the committee for accepting last-minute witness changes.

We would like to deliver short opening remarks. My colleague, Marc Grégoire, who is responsible for safety and security in Transport Canada, will deliver our opening remarks.

Briefly at the outset, however, I believe the transport department was last in front of this committee in November. We're very pleased to be here to report on our progress since then, because a lot has been done since November. My colleagues and I are pleased to be here to expand on that.

My second point is that this is about the safety of Canadians and Canadian travellers. We are very much interested in hearing the views of the committee, receiving the recommendations, and hopefully acting on them, because in safety we cannot compromise and we must always strive to make it better for Canadians.

I'm going to turn it over to my colleague.

[Marc Grégoire, Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport]

Thank you, Yaprak.

Mr. Chair, you have already introduced our other members, who gracefully accepted to replace Martin Eley at the last minute.

Our appearance today coincides with the international high-level safety conference that Mr. Laframboise mentioned, which is being held this week at the International Civil Aviation Organization headquarters in Montreal. I was there yesterday and so was the minister.

Our purpose at the conference is to help enhance aviation safety at a global level, promote the international recognition of the Canadian civil aviation program, and engage in concurrent aviation safety issues with our international partners.

The conference began yesterday and the minister addressed the delegates at the end of the first day of talks. The minister, Mr. Baird, confirmed his commitment to aviation safety and security. He also underscored the importance of our airline industry to the Canadian economy and defended our position on the international scene.

The ICAO continues to recognize Canada's leading position when it comes to air transportation safety. The ICAO also recognizes that Canada is a global leader in the development and implementation of safety management systems, or SMS. Globalization has prompted the industry to question past practices and provided an opportunity to propose improvements for the future. We continue working closely with our international partners to harmonize rules as much as possible.

In fact, at this week's conference Canada was one of the few selected states invited to present a paper on the status of the development of Canada's state safety program. I have copies of this paper with me for the committee in English and French.

As I indicated when I spoke to you in November, ICAO is currently developing a standard and recommended practice for a state safety program. Canada already has the main elements in place, the regulations, standards, guidelines, and education to promote a safe and harmonized aviation system. We anticipate that when the ICAO standard comes into effect, Canada will be well placed to meet this requirement.

I would now like to give you an update on what's happened since I last appeared before the committee in November to discuss the subject of aviation safety, in particular safety management system implementation.

The associate assistant deputy minister, Gerard McDonald, and I have travelled across Canada and held group discussions with inspectors—our inspectors—and their bargaining agents, giving them the opportunity to share their opinions on how to go about implementing safety management systems in the future.

A total of 21 sessions were held in the regions and four were held here in Ottawa. Furthermore, Martin Eley, director general of Civil Aviation, met with most Civil Aviation employees across the country, not only the inspectors at headquarters, but also in the regions. The comments received were positive and I was very encouraged by the response from the unions and constructive dialogues held with them.

We are taking action to respond to the issues and concerns that were raised. We have made some adjustments to continue moving the program forward. We will continue to listen to these groups and make other adjustments as needed. We are determined to improve the already high level of security, thanks to SMS implementation.

The large commercial operators have finished implementing the SMS, and the information gleaned from their experience will help fine tune the plan for the next phase, namely, implementing the SMS in small commercial operators. Based on comments from inspectors and the aeronautics industry, Transport Canada has changed the implementation schedule for the SMS, giving smaller operators at least another year. This will allow us to fine-tune the procedures and documents, and will allow us to give inspectors updated training.

Inspectors play an important role and have several key oversight responsibilities, including determining the effectiveness of a company's SMS, verifying compliance with regulatory requirements, and measuring the effectiveness of corrective actions taken by the company. Inspectors carry out planned and unplanned surveillance. The tools they use to conduct these activities include inspections, audits, validations, and assessments. As a result of these activities, the Civil Aviation Organization can establish whether the company should be subject to routine monitoring, enhanced monitoring, enforcement, or certificate action.

Although inspectors have already been trained, updated training to reflect the changes to procedures is under development. A request for proposal for the development of surveillance procedures training was awarded on March 4. The design and development phases will be completed by June 1, with a pilot course being delivered later that month. Following any necessary revisions further to the pilot course, course delivery to all our inspectors will commence early September 2010.

We take our supervision role very seriously. Approximately three-quarters of the budget allocated to aviation safety is dedicated to supervision activities. These activities are conducted in accordance with established policies and procedures, and they were updated in February to clarify what is expected of inspectors.

Furthermore, the world is watching us. Other countries continue to draw inspiration from our experience and consult us for advice on how to implement SMS. Canada is part of the safety management international collaboration group, which was created last year to foster a common understanding of the principles and requirements of SMS, as well as how to implement them within the entire international aviation community.

As you can tell, a lot of work has been done and we're continuing to make improvements to an already very solid system. I'm confident that this work will go a long way towards improving the understanding of SMS by our employees and the public. The bottom line is that Canadians can be confident in the aviation safety surveillance program.

Aviation safety has received some negative attention in the media in the last year, which ultimately has had an impact on public confidence. This is unfortunate, because these reports have often contained incorrect, misleading, or outdated information. The real story in the Canadian aviation industry is that every day things go very right.

In 2008, there were 12% fewer accidents than in 2007. There were 251 accidents in 2008, compared to 284 in 2007. That is a record low. The 2008 accident rate, 5.7 accidents per 100,000 hours flown, is the lowest in the last 10 years. These statistics are a crucial factor in maintaining public trust, which is an important element of the decision-making process for the program.

Transport Canada works hard every day to ensure that Canadians continue to have confidence in flight safety every time they fly.

Thank you, and we look forward to answering your questions and receiving your suggestions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Volpe.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Baltacioglu and Mr. Grégoire, and thank you to your colleagues, Ms. Girard and Mr. Sherritt.

As you know, we've been wrestling with this for a while. When I first came to this committee, Monsieur Grégoire was sitting at the back and watching as one of his colleagues—I guess the person who preceded him in the spot—tried to navigate through some of the questioning by committee members, especially those on the opposition side. Even though I'm not a great believer in the role of personalities in good procedures, it struck me then that personalities were getting in the way of a solution. It would appear that at least one of those irritants is now out of the way.

So, Monsieur Grégoire, I'm just wondering whether I'm on the right track here. Have we established a different approach from where we were going, or is it a different system from what we were talking about a mere 18 to 24 months ago?

[Marc Grégoire]

I think it's fair to say that over the last year, starting in February 2009, when were completing implementation of the last phase of SMS for major airlines flying into Canada, and since I have really paid more attention to this specifically, we have heard many complaints from our inspectors. Many of them were saying that we had perhaps not paid enough attention to what they had been saying. Since the fall we therefore decided to pay more attention and listen more carefully to what our own inspectors and our own internal unions had to say. We have over 800 inspectors in aviation and over 1,500 inspectors in the safety and security group, and our workforce has to buy into SMS.

When we were listening to those comments in the past, I guess we had thought the inspectors were opposed to the concept of SMS, but by listening to them and having a dialogue with them, especially over the last few months, we realized that was not the case at all. All our inspectors do buy into the concept of SMS, but they do have difficulties with some aspects of its implementation. This is why we have made changes to the implementation of SMS.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You will recall, Monsieur Grégoire, that it was simply an issue of people not listening. What you're saying is really quite encouraging, so let me compliment you.

The other issue was whether we had enough inspectors on site. The last time we had this discussion in this committee, there was some difference of opinion about whether we were going to have a full complement of those inspectors or whether we were going through a transition period that I think some people would describe as downward, while others would say upward.

Has the department now filled that full complement of inspectors, without which an SMS system would not be practicable?

[Marc Grégoire]

We have not yet completed the staffing of all the positions, but it is being done now. I have asked Martin Eley and the national civil aviation management team to proceed with the staffing of all those positions. Martin and I have agreed on a timeline for this. What's being done now is that 60 of those positions are being staffed on an urgent basis, hopefully before the summer, and the rest will be filled by August 2010, so we hope to have staffed all of those positions by the end of the summer.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I haven't had a chance to take a look at the full aspects of the budget implementation bill. Will I find the resources for that in the budget implementation bill?

[Marc Grégoire]

Civil aviation, over the last many years, as I have said here before, required more money than was allocated in their A-base budget. However, as long as I can remember, since 2002-03 the department has always recognized this and has always given the additional money that was needed by civil aviation. That is approximately $10 million, or just short of $10 million.

We have a new deputy now; I have made her aware of those requirements, and everything is in line to seek those additional resources for the coming year as well. We have strong support for this from internal management in the department.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I notice that the language you're using for the SMS is different from what we have used in the past. If I copied it down correctly, it's now “aviation safety surveillance program”. Is that a reflection of a targeting of what you want to do in terms of the audit process, or is it just a different direction?

[Marc Grégoire]

No, it's not a different direction, but what we also realized last year in that process, which for me began last winter, is that in our messaging we didn't pay enough attention to our oversight role, both internally and externally. Some people, both outside and within the department, thought we were bailing out of it, that we were getting out of that role, which is not the case at all. As a result, we want to put more emphasis on our surveillance role and on the activities we do for oversight. That role is extremely important. It always was important, and it always will be important. It's not a change, but it's a change in communications, if you want.

Now, that being said, in the last year, because of all of the work that was being done in the SMS assessments, we haven't done as much in surveillance activities as we would have liked to, but certainly that will change over the next three years, starting immediately.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

We will go now to Monsieur Laframboise.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

During your presentation, you mentioned that you were here in November, when you gave a presentation on the safety system. That is true, you spoke to us about the improvements that had been made.

However, you failed to mention that since November, we have learned from a report released by the Transportation Safety Board of Canada that 12 airplane accidents that led to 28 deaths were caused by pilot fatigue. I am not sure if you are aware that you failed to mention that, but I think this shows a problem.

Upon listening to, looking at and reading the statements by Mr. Eley, director general of Civil Aviation, we learned that Transport Canada received a report in 2001 that recommended adjusting pilots' schedules based on their circadian rhythms. Mr. Eley said that Transport Canada never followed through on those recommendations. He admitted that the recommendations did not elicit much interest at the time and they were not part of Transport Canada's priorities. What he said is important.

Was Transport Canada focusing too much on safety management systems, when it should have been paying more attention to pilot fatigue? That would be a reasonable conclusion, based on what Mr. Eley said.

You had some other concerns, besides pilot fatigue, which is troubling. Indeed, you are telling us that you are the global leader in safety management systems. I have already had the opportunity to tell you that we thought you wanted to reduce costs by handing this management system over to private enterprise. You have since changed your position. You just told us that you will be putting more emphasis on your oversight role over the next few years, but I cannot help but think you have overlooked a big part of safety, namely, pilot fatigue.

Please try to reassure me.

[Marc Grégoire]

Pilot fatigue is something we take very seriously. I have been with Transport Canada for a very long time, and that issue was studied and analyzed extensively from 1980 to 1990. After over 10 years of communication and meetings with air carriers and pilots' associations, we created the regulations that are in place today.

I believe those regulations have helped reduce the number of accidents. We analyze every accident and read all the reports released by the Canadian Transportation Safety Board. Priority is always given to TSB recommendations. The TSB has not issued any recommendations related to pilot fatigue since 1995. The TSB may have noted fatigue as one factor contributing to an accident, but not the main cause. Just last week I spoke to the Transportation Safety Board's chair and asked her if she had any other concerns. Perhaps you would like to invite her here to speak to the committee. It is not the TSB's top priority, which is why it was not included in the list of the nine main factors they want us to focus on.

That being said, we now recognize that the regulations governing pilot scheduling could be improved and we have introduced a system to review those regulations. To that end, we plan to use a system we developed thanks to the studies cited in the Enquête program, first for mechanics and then for pilots. A working group will be meeting in June, I belive, to begin work on reviewing different hours, primarily, and the impact of circadian rhythms on pilots' schedules.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I am glad to see you recognize that today, Mr. Grégoire. All the same, Transport Canada produced a report in 2001, which you decided to ignore. Mr. Eley told us so. You tell us that the Transportation Safety Board of Canada has never made such a recommendation, but your own department commissioned a study that recommended you take action on this.

We have just been through a saga with Toyota. If you wait until accidents happen before taking action, you will have a problem, because you need to be ahead of the game. The worst is that you were out front in 2001. You decided to move on to other things and abandon the fatigue file. That was Mr. Eley's statement. I am not going to repeat it all, because he is not here to defend himself, but that is what he said. How can you assure us that you are going to take action?

[Marc Grégoire]

We have already announced it, and the minister announced it himself: we will have a working group in June. That is a few months away. We could come in and give the committee an update then.