Transport Committee on March 6th, 2012

[Jim Facette]

Why not? It probably goes back to the OEMs, and part of the challenge is infrastructure.

People are comfortable with gasoline. We have a culture that's comfortable with it. We have auto manufacturers who know it. We have a sophisticated distribution system. We have gas stations on pretty much every corner across the country, and that's okay, but getting Canadians to think differently takes time, money, investment, and maturity of the industry. It's not just the individual.

When it comes to propane, the technology has matured over the last 30 years. We had an issue about 25 years ago with conversion. There were incentives offered, and it seemed like anybody with a ranch was doing the conversion, but they were doing it wrong. When you have one chance to get it right and things get done wrong, it tends to stain you for some time.

If we get some more OEMs to produce propane-powered vehicles, it will allow us to put more infrastructure in place to make it easier. Eventually we could go the way Europe has. At one time, they were filling up their BMWs in the middle of the night with propane, but they don't have to do that anymore. They can go to any filling station during the day and self-fill.

It isn't just one thing; there are a lot of stars that have to line up, including the regulations and standards across the country. It is these standards that would allow us to do what is already being done elsewhere in the world.

That's a complicated answer to a simple question.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I'm actually old enough to remember when we weren't allowed to pump our own gas. We had to have somebody who knew how to flip the switch, take the gas cap off, and do it.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I'm not old enough to remember that.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Of course not, Ms. Chow.

We've come a long way, but the newer generation wouldn't know that at one point you couldn't do that, and now you can. How complicated is that compared with the European model?

I want to get back to Mr. Shaw on the same question: why haven't we had the proliferation of vehicles into, say, natural gas? I also want to come back to you on this notion of how difficult it is to flip a switch. Frankly, I've never driven my own vehicle in Europe, although I've been there several times, and I would like to have a sense how hard it would be. Is it the same process as learning how to pump our own gas?

[Jim Facette]

Yes, it's a simple process. You take it off the pump, you put it in the part of the car that requires the fuel, and you hold it there. There are built-in valves and mechanisms that shut off the propane when it's full, which for any propane container is no more than 80%.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

What exactly are the 2,500 propane stations now in Canada?

[Jim Facette]

They're essentially filling stations, but a certified individual must do the filling, just as they had to do 35 or 40 years ago.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Do you think it's overregulated, that aspect of it?

[Jim Facette]

Yes.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I was surprised to hear you say—I believe it was you—that the set-up cost of the fuelling station was $45,000 to $55,000. That does not seem like a lot of money to me.

[Jim Facette]

It's not. I would invite this committee to ask Canada Post here as a witness. They'll tell you directly about those costs.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

I want to come back to Mr. Shaw and ask why there hasn't been a move to natural gas and propane vehicles. What's your sense of that?

[Dr. Sam Shaw]

There are two reasons. One is that in North America it was only in 2008 that we started getting a tremendous supply of natural gas, and this supply has decreased the price. Europe is much more environmentally friendly. They do things like the 30% savings on carbon dioxide and 99% on particulates, the SO_x and NO_x, and so forth. There are 13.6 million natural gas vehicles in the world, but only 140,000 in North America.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

How many are in Canada?

[Dr. Sam Shaw]

We have 14,000.

We're starting to see price sensitivity with the abundance of natural gas. That's why the OEMs are starting to move in that direction. There's been a tremendous push since the “Blueprint for a Secure Energy Future” in the U.S. and the executive order to have all U.S. government vehicles on alternative energy by December 31, 2015.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

That's rather interesting.

When I think of what powers a vehicle, I think of traditional gas, natural gas, propane, electric, solar, but we haven't talked about home. I would think that's the other piece. I know you've talked mostly about fleets.

I'm afraid I'm not going to have the opportunity to get a response on this question, but it would be interesting to have a graph that shows cost. We all think about electric power and the grid, but I'm trying to get a strong sense of what the cost is per litre. I'm trying to find some common ground.

I would challenge a comment that was made earlier. I think Canadians understand economics. If we found that there was truly a savings, Mr. Facette, and if that message got out, I think it would become its own proliferation of positive news. I'd love to get a sense from you of the vehicle side of those comparisons. I'd like to see them on a standardized basis so we could all understand them.

[Dr. Sam Shaw]

I have some graphs for you in my handout. It's GGE, gasoline gallon equivalent.

[Ed Holder, Conservative, London West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Before I recognize Ms. Chow, home heating fuel—natural gas or propane—is discounted from the price at the station, or at least it was at one time. Is that still the case?

[Dr. Sam Shaw]

It depends on the jurisdiction and the utility. Some are regulated and some are not.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

You could fill your vehicle up for a lot less money if you were buying at the home heating cost.

[Dr. Sam Shaw]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Go ahead, Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I have a few questions and then I'll give my remaining time to Mr. Nicholls.

Mr. Shaw, Encana has a number of trucks that are natural gas. How many trucks do you have in total, and how many do you have on natural gas?

[Dr. Sam Shaw]

We have 160 trucks operating on natural gas right now, and those are conversions. Those are not OEMs.