Transport Committee on Sept. 28th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, meeting number three. According to the orders of the day, we are examining the national public transit strategy.

Joining us today is Taki Sarantakis, assistant deputy minister of the policy and communications branch. I'll ask Taki to introduce the people at the table.

We welcome you. We understand and appreciate the fact that you had very short notice. We appreciate that you have come. We look forward to your presentation.

I believe members of the committee have copies of the presentation in French and English.

I'll ask you to begin and to keep your presentation to roughly ten minutes or less, and we'll go from there.

[Taki Sarantakis, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy and Communications Branch, Infrastructure Canada]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have with me today Mr. Francis Bilodeau, who is our director of policy at Infrastructure Canada; and Stephanie Tanton, who is our principal transportation analyst.

Again, thank you to the committee for the opportunity to speak with you here today. I'll just make some very brief introductory remarks so I don't cut too much into your time for questions. Basically I will focus my remarks on two aspects. The first is investments that Infrastructure Canada has made in infrastructure in public transit across Canada in recent years as well as key initiatives that were announced in the last federal budget, budget 2011.

Public transit has been and continues to be a key investment category under the programs that are managed by Infrastructure Canada, reflecting the fact that public transit contributes to a more prosperous economy, a cleaner environment, and more livable cities and communities across Canada. Since 2006 the Government of Canada has directly committed approximately $5 billion towards public transit across Canada through its suite of infrastructure programs. This federal funding commitment has leveraged an additional $7 billion from our partners, who are principally provinces, territories, and municipalities. So in total this been an injection of some $13 billion into Canada's public transit network.

Through the Building Canada fund, the Government of Canada has made important renewal and expansion investments in transit systems that will last and provide benefits to Canadians for years to come. These include investments in the Toronto-York subway line extension, the Ottawa light rail transit project, the Evergreen transit line in Vancouver, and in the expansion of light rail transit systems in Edmonton and Calgary. In addition, Canada's touchstone public transit station, Union Station in Toronto, is receiving a significant revitalization through federal infrastructure funding.

Public transit was also an important investment category under the infastructure stimulus fund. It was one of the largest investment categories in the infrastructure stimulus fund, which was in turn a key component of Canada's economic action plan. Some $240 million, again from direct federal expenditures, went into public transit, which usually trebles the amount, so some $700 million was injected into public transit.

In addition to the funding for specific projects, the Gas Tax Fund is also available to municipalities for public transit. Since 2006, municipalities have put approximately $1.1 billion of their federal Gas Tax Fund allocations towards transit investments.

In fact several large municipalities, including Edmonton, Toronto, and Montreal, have dedicated the totality of their gas tax allocations towards public transit. Several other large municipalities, including Ottawa and Calgary, essentially do the same thing. So five of Canada's largest municipalities dedicate all, or virtually all, of their gas tax funding to municipalities.

Under the gas tax fund, provinces, territories, and municipalities have the flexibility to address their priorities as they see fit. This practice works well because it reflects the fact that public transit needs vary across Canada, and this is especially true of public transit.

Turning briefly to the second point, we just want to touch on the key commitments that were made in budget 2011.

First, budget 2011 announced that the Government of Canada would be legislating the permanency of the gas tax. This measure means that there will be long-term, stable, and predictable funding for municipalities to help meet their infrastructure needs, including their public transit needs. We expect that this legislation will be in the Budget Implementation Act very shortly.

Second, the Government of Canada has committed to work with provinces, territories, municipalities, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, and other stakeholders to develop a long-term plan for public infrastructure that extends beyond the expiry of the current Building Canada suite of programs. In this context, in its consultations the government will be engaging not only with other levels of government but, as we mentioned, the FCM, the Canadian Urban Transit Association, and all other forms of stakeholders that are interested in this area in order to comprehensively examine Canada's infrastructure needs post-Building Canada.

With that, my colleagues and I will be very pleased to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Thank you for taking the time to be with us today.

I have a report issued in October 2009 by the urban transportation task force. The task force report is called Urban Transit in Canada: Taking Stock of Recent Progress. This report brings together all different provincial governments, and Transport Canada is of course a partner.

I'm sure you're familiar with this report. It recommends a series of principles. It talks about provincial transit funding, federal transit funding, and municipal transit funding. It talks about looking ahead, about what kinds of expansion plans there would be, and historically what kinds of investment have taken place. Of course there has been an increase, as you said earlier.

It also takes a look at governance and key challenges. We know that no doubt there is a funding gap, and that some of the transit infrastructure, especially in big cities, is in decay. For smaller towns and communities, when they receive a bus, it really means that seniors and young people can then move around in their neighbourhoods.

The key recommendation is that “All levels of government need to work together to provide adequate funding to support transit, while respecting jurisdictional responsibilities.” The report also talks about the importance of the movement of goods and people, and says that all governments should promote transit use.

One of the key areas the report talks about is the federal government taking a leadership role to bring all the provincial, territorial, and also municipal and transit authorities together to come up with a plan. I realize that Lawrence Cannon, the former minister, went to some extent, with your department, to begin to put together that plan. I believe former Minister Chuck Strahl also was looking at that. Perhaps you can describe to us where that initiative is in a putting together a national transit strategy.

[Taki Sarantakis]

Thank you. There were a lot of questions there, so I'll try to unpack a few of them.

Fundamentally, your first question, I think, is about leadership. In terms of leadership, I think the federal government has shown tremendous leadership, probably starting in 2000, in terms of transit infrastructure funding. There was a time in Canada when it was completely unthinkable that the Government of Canada would be a partner with municipalities in their transit projects. I remember that when I was a student at York University in 1988 and they were talking about the Spadina subway extension--that's how long these projects take--it was unthinkable at that time that the Government of Canada would be a partner in a project like that. Well, not only is the federal government a partner in a project like that, but I think more and more it becomes unthinkable that the Government of Canada would not be a partner in a project like that going forward.

The way that the landscape has changed in a little over a decade has simply been remarkable. Again, that's really a credit to the fact that the infrastructure issue, public transit in particular, has risen up to the fore.

The second thing I would say is that in terms of the current suite of programs, public transit again in terms of funding tends to dominate. Of the Building Canada fund, of the major infrastructure component, some 40% of that has gone to public transit across Canada.

So in terms of leadership, I think it is very clear that the Government of Canada has been showing leadership in terms of financing. In terms of other kinds of leadership, that becomes a more difficult question. As you know, public transit is largely delivered through municipalities. There are some exceptions. Metrolinx in Toronto is a regional board run by the province. Generally speaking, though, municipalities run transit systems. To that extent, it's very difficult for the Government of Canada to engage in a comprehensive planning suite because the needs are very different across Canada.

For example, in Manitoba there are some 200 communities, and only four of those have transit. Each of those four systems has very different transit needs. The needs of a Winnipeg in terms of transit are very different from the needs of a Brandon in terms of transit. It is very difficult for the Government of Canada to try to impose a kind of uniformity.

So I think what the government has done is probably reflective of the nature of Canadian federalism, which is to say the government has shown leadership in funding and in financing, but it has not in turn imposed certain types of transit-specific measures that must be undertaken by provinces or municipalities.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I agree that one should not impose any standards; that's the last thing I would like to see. However, we all know that in order to build RT lines or any kind of infrastructure, it takes a long time. If there are no concrete plans, often it's very difficult for municipalities, and even provinces, to plan ahead. Many of these transit projects are massive in terms of dollar amounts.

Is that seven minutes gone?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

You have one more.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

I didn't say billions, but I was going to say billions of dollars. We have such a heavy investment.

It's not that we need to dictate what the plan will be, but we at least need to have a plan agreed on by the provinces, municipalities, and the federal government, and then proceed with a 10- or 20-year plan. Then I think taxpayers would waste less money, because I've seen projects start and stop and start and stop, and you just end up wasting a lot of money. In fact it would allow urban planning for development to really take place.

Has there been any discussion on how that could occur in a systematic way, rather than it sometimes just happens and sometimes not? It's just very random right now, a very fragmented approach.

[Taki Sarantakis]

Typically the way the Government of Canada engages with the provinces and territories on infrastructure issues is on a bilateral basis. We tend to have talks between Canada and Newfoundland, Canada and Ontario, and Canada and Quebec. When we talk nationally, it becomes much more difficult. Again, transit is incredibly important to large urban areas, but there are large swaths of Canada that don't have very large urban areas, or parts of Canada where transit simply isn't salient.

If you look at Toronto, transit constantly ranks as one of the top issues. When you do polling in Toronto, transit and transportation is always, if not at the top, very near the top. That tends to be unusual outside the top ten cities in Canada. Once you leave the top cities in Canada, that drops off dramatically. Transit in these areas is something that people basically don't even think about in their daily lives.

Last week I was in Nunavut. And in Nunavut, I can tell you, there is no public transit. In Iqaluit there is a series of cabs. Outside of Iqaluit there are another 24 communities, and there are not even cabs. So it's very difficult for the federal government to talk about transit on the whole across Canada.

That being said, the Government of Canada has done some things nationally. We have talked about funding already.

The second thing the government has done is to put in some money for ecoMOBILITY, which is very important in the sense that it's helped to make the transit we do have a little more accessible for people.

Moreover, a few years ago, when there were some unfortunate incidents in London with respect to transit, where it appeared there was going to be a terrorist attack on a public transit system, the government provided transit security funding.

The other thing the Government of Canada has done—and I imagine it's something a lot of Canadians have taken advantage of—is that it's provided tax deductibility for transit passes when someone buys a one-year pass, as opposed to buying tickets.

On the whole, these things are salient across Canada. All of the things I just mentioned, to the extent you have a transit system, show a good, constructive role for the federal government to play.

On the flip side, when you start talking about planning, that has different meanings to different people. So I appreciate that when you say “planning”, you mean one set of things, but other people hear a different set of things. They hear “imposition”, they hear “transit share modes”, they hear “mandatory land use planning”, etc.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I'll have to stop you there, but I appreciate that.

Monsieur Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses for joining us.

Of course, I read your document carefully for semantic reasons.

What has been done in Quebec, in Montreal? Things are going well in Toronto, Ottawa and Vancouver, and I'm quite glad, but what about Montreal?

[Francis Bilodeau, Director, Policy, Policy and Communications Branch, Infrastructure Canada]

Under federal programs, the government has invested about $44 million in public transit projects in Montreal since 2006. The Infrastructure Stimulus Fund provided $19 million and the Public–Private Partnerships Fund provided about $24.73 million.

One of the key projects is the Lachine Maintenance Centre, which is covered by the P3 Canada Fund. A few projects were carried out under the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund. Approximately $112.25 million were set aside for Montreal public transit, under the Gas Tax Fund.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

What portion of the $240-million amount invested in the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund is going to Quebec?

Was the $240 million the total investment envelope in Canada?

[Taki Sarantakis]

Quebec's portion of the Infrastructure Stimulus Fund was about $1 billion.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

A billion dollars for everything?

[Taki Sarantakis]

Yes.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Excuse me. Have we lost translation?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Now you know how I feel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

You were involved in the conversation.

That's fine? Thank you.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

It's my voice, not my words.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Go ahead.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Okay.

Clearly, we're talking about the future. Public transit is not just a matter of use; it is also a matter of relationships. We have to reinvent leadership and partnership through what I refer to as direct contact. We must establish a new relationship with municipalities, especially the major cities, while respecting jurisdictions.

I know you are currently negotiating phase two of the Montreal metro renovation program. If memory serves me right, that should come up to about $150 million. Could you clarify what kind of a relationship the Canadian government and Montreal have as far as that project goes?

[Taki Sarantakis]

We usually don't negotiate directly with Quebec's municipalities. We deal mainly with the Government of Quebec. According to the terms of the framework agreements negotiated by the Government of Canada and the Government of Quebec....

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I am familiar with the Constitution and the programs.