Evidence of meeting #5 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

David Jeanes  President, Transport Action Canada
Paul Bedford  Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Small municipalities don't have the financial wherewithal to come up with a comprehensive plan. In Whitehorse, for example, they know the buses they got from the federal government are working and they're struggling with the operating part of it, but they also need funding for vans or buses to go to other communities outside Whitehorse so that people in those communities can shop and go to doctor's appointments and so the seniors can buy food, etc. They have no capacity to do the research on how to get the projects going.

In terms of a national transit strategy or plan or framework, do you envision that the federal government would work with the territorial government—in this case Yukon—to connect with the municipalities and the aboriginal communities to come together and say that in the next 10 or 20 years they need certain public transit projects, and then make a decision as to who is going to fund what and how it would take place? Is that the kind of environmental scan you're looking at? We have an aging population, and there is the growth of the mining industry, but one way or another people have to find a way to get to work, get to doctor's appointments, and go shopping.

October 5th, 2011 / 4:15 p.m.

President, Transport Action Canada

David Jeanes

Certainly there has to be guidance from some source. Obviously in the north the federal government may be the only available source of knowledge and expertise to do that.

I know that the Federal Transit Administration in the United States, which I mentioned, and the Transportation Research Board in the U.S. do provide a lot of guidance of this sort in terms of guidelines or suggested approaches, which can be widely used. I think that's necessary, yes.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Ms. James. Welcome.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Jeanes, for your introductory speech. I also want to thank you for acknowledging the large investment that has come from this government over the past number of years for infrastructure, specifically for transportation and transit. Over the last number of years I've attended several announcements, so I know the funding has gone into key areas.

Speaking of Budget 2011, back in June it was announced by the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities that we were going to be working with mayors as well as community and municipal leaders right across the country. We've made a strong commitment to continue with funding over the next number of years.

Building Canada is a $33 billion, seven-year plan that's set to expire in 2014. Based on the information that's come out in Budget 2011 and the announcement by the minister, I think we're going to have a commitment to continue with the funding.

We're talking about a national transit strategy here. Given the commitment we've already made, that we're willing to work with the mayors and the municipal leaders right across Canada, do you not agree that the context of any strategy should be included in the commitment we've already made? Or do you believe it's something separate? If so, at what cost would that be?

4:15 p.m.

President, Transport Action Canada

David Jeanes

I think the two are linked. I referred to the infrastructure projects, many of which are important and have been successful. Some of these projects could not have happened if there weren't a significant federal infusion of funds.

I'm looking at ways in which there can be an ongoing framework for providing resources—not only infrastructure funds but also expertise and capabilities to the provinces and the municipalities.

It's one thing to have a grant to build new transit infrastructure. If you're building a highway bridge or a road, then the operating costs are absorbed by the users, because they own the vehicles and pay the maintenance costs on them. Then there's snowplowing and road maintenance. But with transit systems it's quite different. When you build a transit system, you're committing yourself to a high labour cost. That has to be covered by the operating agency, usually a municipality. The cost of transit drivers is one of the largest costs in managing a transit system. And federal policies may be significant here. For example, I talked right at the beginning about policies on driver hours, which can have an effect on what it costs to operate these systems. It's the same with the fuel costs incurred by the municipalities. These costs must be managed, over and above the costs of the infrastructure. We need frameworks to address these costs.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

We need to be careful about boundaries within a provincial jurisdiction and municipalities. We don't want to overstep our boundaries. We want to work with the municipalities. I know you've touched on it, but I wonder if you could elaborate on what you think the federal government's role would be in a transit strategy within a specific municipality.

4:20 p.m.

President, Transport Action Canada

David Jeanes

Unless a municipality is large enough to afford to take on its own responsibility for safety regulation, the federal government should be able to provide that service. In some cases, it's provided automatically. In Ottawa and Gatineau, for example, the transit systems are federally regulated anyway. In other cases, the service can be provided only if it's paid for. For example, the Province of Ontario has to contract with the federal government to get the safety inspection services for Metrolinx and GO Transit in Toronto. But smaller communities need to have access to those kinds of capabilities, without necessarily having to develop them from scratch themselves.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you. I'll stop you there.

We'll go to Mr. Chicoine.

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello Mr. Jeanes. Thank you for being here.

I have a few questions regarding rail transportation in metropolitan areas. Montreal's Agence métropolitaine de transport is having a lot of difficulty negotiating with CN and CP. These companies, which are essentially private, are charging very high rates for fares.

Over the past 10 years, public transit has developed a great deal in the Montreal area but it was fairly tough going. Do you have any ideas for giving priority to public transit during peak hours and for possibly imposing regulations that require merchandise to be transported only at night or, at the very least, outside of peak hours?

4:20 p.m.

President, Transport Action Canada

David Jeanes

It's always a big problem.

A different approach was taken in the United States when Amtrak—I know this is in a different sector and it's intercity transportation—was founded as the passenger railway. It was written into law that there had to be certain guarantees of service in the contracts with the railways so that the railways not only had to accept the Amtrak trains but had to provide that they could be scheduled to operate in a reasonably timely way.

In Canada, both VIA Rail, on the intercity level, and the commuter agencies, such as AMT in Montreal and Metrolinx and GO Transit in Toronto, are to some extent at the mercy of their host railways. They don't have any kind of legislated protection for quality of service. In Toronto, Metrolinx is increasingly dealing with that problem by building or acquiring its own tracks. VIA Rail has done the same in some important corridors, for example, between Montreal and Ottawa. A significant portion of the corridor is now owned by VIA, as is part of the corridor from Ottawa going west towards Toronto. But in general, there have to be ways found so that the freight railways and the passenger service can coexist and share those facilities.

The railway lines were originally built as public resources. Yes, they have passed into private ownership, but other countries have found ways of managing the coexistence of freight and passenger service. In some cases, it will require extra investment. As you know, VIA Rail has received extensive federal government money to build additional passing tracks. Some of those passing tracks are actually in urban areas. For example, in the city of Ottawa, there are some additional passing tracks that have been built by VIA Rail that could facilitate commuter service. In those cases, it is possible to find ways, again with some federal participation, to arrange a coexistence between these two needs for a rail network.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mrs. Hughes.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

Thank you very much.

I'm just going to continue down this road.

I am actually in a rural area. I have Algoma, Manitoulin, and Kapuskasing. I'm not sure if you've heard of CAPT.

4:25 p.m.

President, Transport Action Canada

David Jeanes

It's the Coalition for Algoma Passenger Trains. I know it well.

4:25 p.m.

NDP

Carol Hughes NDP Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON

That's correct. You have it right.

They've been advocating for passenger trains in northern Ontario for quite some time. It's a big demand up there. Not too l long ago, we had to fight and advocate and prod the government to put funding into preserving the freight trains up there. We were trying at the same time to also upgrade that line, not only for the freight trains but for the passenger trains. Do you think the proper way to go would be to incorporate freight into rail, because you've mentioned this on a number of occasions?

4:25 p.m.

President, Transport Action Canada

David Jeanes

Yes, I think so. We're dealing partly with a provincially regulated railway here. But I think it's generally the case that it is possible to invest in these remote lines to provide an acceptable level of passenger service. What's acceptable may be different from what you'd expect in the Toronto-Montreal-Ottawa corridor, but I believe it can be done.

For example, you have existing remote services that are operated federally, such as VIA service from Sudbury to White River, but you have the opportunity to reinstate a Sudbury to Sault Ste. Marie service on the Huron Central Railway. But that would require upgrading the track to an acceptable level and using the appropriate type of passenger rail technology to provide that kind of service.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I'm sorry, I have to stop it there.

Our time is up, Mr. Jeanes, and we have our next guest here. But I do thank you. I know you've appeared before this committee in the past, and your advice has always been very succinct. So thank you very much.

4:25 p.m.

President, Transport Action Canada

David Jeanes

Thank you.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

We're going to take a brief two-minute recess to allow our next guest to get to the table and set up, and then we'll get right back to it.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Welcome back to part two of the transport committee's national public transit strategy study. Joining us today, as an individual, is Mr. Paul Bedford. He has a PowerPoint presentation. I know he may run a few seconds past the allotted time, but I think it's important for us to have that information.

Mr. Coderre, on a point of error--I mean order.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

The error will be in the answer, I guess. Is that a bilingual presentation?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

It's deemed bilingual because of the translation that is available to all members.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Mr. Chair, I will let that go today. However, as a francophone, I expect presentations and visual aids to be bilingual. I am not talking about interpretation here. That being said, our interpreters do excellent work. Some people, whether they be anglophone or francophone, cannot express themselves easily in both official languages.

If I were giving a presentation in French only, I would understand that my colleagues would want the slides to be in English too. Today, for practical purposes, I do not have a problem with it. However, the next time, I would ask, as a committee member, that we ensure that all documentation presented and the presentations themselves be bilingual. Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you for your intervention. I understand the presentation is mostly visual. We have had this issue raised in previous committee meetings, and it was acceptable by all sides. As long as we had interpretation, it was deemed to be presented in both official languages. We'll certainly work to improve that.

Mr. Bedford.

4:30 p.m.

Paul Bedford Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual

Thank you very much for this opportunity to speak to you. I welcome the chance to share my comments about a national transit strategy to this all-party committee, because transit is an all-party issue across the country.

My presentation is mostly visual, so I'll run right through it as quickly as I can.

[Slide Presentation]

I want to start by looking at a map of Canada in terms of the major cities and the city regions across the country. If we look at Canada today, the population is about 34 million. As we know, in six short years we're going to celebrate the 150th birthday of the country. We'll probably be at about 36 million then, so we'll have added the equivalent of greater Vancouver. But I think the most important thing to focus on is where we're going to be in 2067, which is only 56 years away. We're going to add the equivalent of greater Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, the greater Toronto region, Ottawa, greater Montreal, Quebec City, and Halifax. That's what we're going to add to the country, and if we don't have a transit strategy for those additional 16 million people, we're in big trouble as a country.

Many of you know Jane Jacobs, who passed away several years ago. She was a wonderful lady. I had the pleasure of working with her. This was the last book she ever wrote, and in that book she, unfortunately, wasn't very optimistic. She looked at this dark age ahead. My position here is that we need to rise to the occasion and make sure that Canada's future is not in fact a dark age.

This is all too familiar to people in Toronto and most major cities across the country. This is the 401 at rush hour. It's basically a parking lot, notwithstanding that it has 16 lanes. The fact is that this is a very personal issue to Canadians in three areas.

First, over a 40-year working life--from 25 to 65--that we are all involved in, there are issues of lost time, lost money, and health, caused by sitting in gridlock. Very quickly, in terms of the time, if you commute one hour a day, it equals a loss of one entire calendar year over your 40-year working life. Two hours a day is a loss of two years. Three hours a day is a loss of three years.

Second, the average cost of owning a car in the greater Toronto area, according to the Canadian Automobile Association, is $12,000 a year all in. Over a working life you're spending half a million dollars on your Toyota. It's worth nothing at the end. If you have two cars, you're spending a million dollars; three is a million and a half dollars.

The third area, of course, is health. If you're stuck in gridlock, you're not doing much exercise.

So there are a lot of issues there. I don't know about you, but I can imagine being about to pass away one day when someone insists, “How would you like three more years of healthy life and a million bucks in your RRSP?” Who wouldn't say yes? So this is a very personal issue for Canadians.

This is a shot of gas prices around the world. It varies every week, but you can see, roughly speaking, that Canada is in the middle. I can guarantee that one day we will be at the level of the Netherlands. It's only a matter of time. That has huge implications for Canadians and how they move around their cities.

This is one of my favourite pictures. It's very important, and I always show it to my friends in Toronto. There's the exact same number of people in each of those three slides--40. The only difference is there's one per car, one per chair, and then everybody sitting on a streetcar with an empty street. What this says is we have to use the road space we have far more effectively than we do.

Here's another good one. This is Union Station in Toronto. For the number of people who go through that station every day, you'd have to build 72 lanes of expressway to equal the same number of people who go through that. The same numbers would apply for Montreal and other major cities. The point is that building more roads is not going to solve our problems. Transit has to be the answer. We do have a choice.

Unfortunately, across Canada many of our suburbs look the same. They look as the slide does in the top. There's a whole movement of smart growth in all the major cities of the country to intensify and concentrate and make development more viable to support public transit, as you see in the bottom slide.

These are some of the initial conclusions that I've been aware of in my career. What people are saying in Toronto and across the country is that they want more choice. A lot of people feel stuck because they only have one option now, and that is driving. They want smarter choices.

We have to look at moving people, not only cars, and land use and transportation go together like a hand in glove. We shouldn't forget that. We need to connect the dots, because as David Crombie has always told me, everything is connected to everything in any major city and any city region. All of these dots have something to do with a city, with a region, and we have to plan in its entirety. Everything is interconnected. These are some of the images that go with that.

Here's a very simple chart that we put together when we did the Toronto official plan. I thought it might be helpful for you. Everything you see on the top are the basic components of a transportation planner's strategy. Everything you see in green you can do for free. It simply means a policy decision. Everything in yellow costs some money and the red costs a fortune. Generally, what people focus on is only the red. The fact of the matter is, we have a huge scope federally, provincially, and locally to look at all these possibilities and all these levers to in fact achieve a transit strategy that we need for the country.

I will just move forward in terms of where we need to go in terms of 21st century challenges. The Don Valley Parkway and GO Transit are a very important part of the picture. One train equals 1,500 people. One lane of traffic is 1,500 people. The only difference is you can run a train every 15 minutes, whereas the traffic lane is 1,500 an hour. The new subway rocket cars in Toronto are very important for the system. I took the train coming up here today, and we just read that we had the highest number of passengers ever. In the last week 1.7 million people rode the subway in one day. We're almost at 500 million a year. So it's very critical for the larger centres of the country.

One of my passions is street cars. This is on Spadina Avenue. You can't forget street cars. I know there are very few of these left anywhere. We're lucky we have saved them in Toronto. But I want to tell you, if you add up the number of people who ride the street car lines in Toronto, it's more than the number of passengers who ride the entire GTA GO service every day. They're very, very important. They're urban work horses.

Calgary Transit, light rail in Edmonton.... Many other cities are moving in that direction.

And of course Yellowknife.... You can't forget the small communities. I was up there this summer because I always wanted to go there, so I did. This is my friendly bus driver in Yellowknife. There are two buses in Yellowknife. I had a great talk with him and with the administration there.

As we've heard earlier, small communities still need transit, but it's obviously got to be in the form of buses. So it runs the whole scope.

By looking to the future and moving forward, this is the kind of system that Metrolinx is looking at building over the next 20 to 25 years. The cost of this is $75 billion in terms of capital, operating, and maintenance, but it's going to serve a population of 10 million, and if we don't do it we're in huge trouble as an economic region.

Ottawa, as you well know, in terms of the light rail system, is tied to land use.

Vancouver is also very similar in terms of the various lines that have been built or that are proposed. I was out there last week and of course rode the line to the airport. They have an extensive transit plan as well.

Moving forward, the final piece here is in terms of where we are going to go in the future.

This is a shot of a little child. He is going to grow up one day to be a chief planner or a mayor or a member of Parliament, and the fact of the matter is I hope he has a full range of choice in terms of transportation.

If we look at international practices, without getting into any details, we are so far behind as a country it isn't funny. So many other cities and regions have all these other tools that you see listed across the top. We hardly have any, and we need to catch up.

Here are some of the tools that in fact are being looked at in the Metrolinx context in Toronto. Every single one of them is controversial, I'm going to be very blunt with you, but the fact is nothing's free. We have to have that kind of discussion, not only in Toronto but across the country, in terms of where the money comes from. Perhaps it comes from the federal government, from the province, from the locals, as well as from the community. All of these are important issues that we have to face.

I want to bring it down to a personal level, because the earlier deputant talked in questioning about road tolls and road pricing. That's one of the tools that we have to talk about. Here are some comparisons. People don't think anything about buying these commodities every day. In fact, lots of people have two Second Cup lattes, but as soon as you mention road pricing, people go crazy.

Here's another comparison. I just looked at a sample road toll price between Toronto and Oakville: 10¢ a kilometre would be $120 a month return. People are paying $121 now for a TTC metropass. They're already paying $215 return for GO Transit, and you see those other figures depending on the kind of plan you have. The point is we have to make sure that people get value for money if we're going to use some of these tools.

We did an extensive consultation around the GTA region on what was called “The Big Move” plan for Metrolinx, and this is the result. I went to every one of the public meetings in all the regions and I went by transit to every darn one of them, and the fact of the matter is, as you see in number 1, there is a huge degree of support. People say they want regional rapid transit and they're willing to pay for it, and they want it to be seamless and they want it to be integrated. But that's the message we got.

This is one of my favourite quotes: Again, nothing's free; you've got to pay for it and you've got to figure out how we're going to pay for it.

Here are some lessons I have learned in my 40-year career as a city planner: focus and simplify the message; respect public wisdom and political action; and develop and communicate strong beliefs. There's no point in doing something marginal. You've got to get things done.

To wrap up, in terms of what I call “future proofing Canada” between now and 2067, our cities and city regions are absolutely critical for the economic health of the country. About 80% of the people live in the city regions. That's where the economic wealth is. That's where the ideas come from. And that's where our economy will grow, if we have a great transportation system in those regions.

Ottawa, as you may know, is embarking on this exercise right now. In the current Canadian Geographic magazine, there's a feature on Ottawa, choosing our future: looking ahead a hundred years to build a capital region. Scientific American has a whole feature on smarter cities.

In terms of looking at how we're going to communicate this very important issue across the country, I think your committee could take the lead, frankly, and establish what I'll call tripartite forums in the city regions across the country. You have the elected representatives from the feds, the provinces, and the local areas, with the people in the transit agencies, urbanists, etc., to have that discussion about what this national transit strategy should look like and how it should be funded.

My message to you is that we can't go on with the status quo. We do want change. I beg you to take this very seriously, which I know you are, and to make no little plans. The future of the country is very much integrated into your work.

Thank you for your attention.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

I suspect at the time of the railway, Mr. Macdonald could have used some of the advice you've provided to us today.