Evidence of meeting #5 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Yes, about 40 years.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
We've never had any fights here. We're just talking. At the end we'll have a group hug. It's going to be interesting.
4:50 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
On division.
My understanding is that you've been in the field. The only thing that disappointed me a bit is that you asked for another study or another talk. You were in the field in Toronto; you were the chief planner. Are you telling me that nothing happened when you were there, at that time?
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Oh, heavens, no. Lots of things happened, but I think this is the key issue. Notwithstanding the good things that have happened, the problem is ten times bigger than the existing reality. We have to figure out, in terms of these major growth areas of our city regions across the country, how we're going to meet these needs. So far, if we continue on the path we're on, we're not going to get there.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
I am going to speak in French.
I am from Montreal. We celebrated Car Free Day but since there has been so much construction, this has been a car-free summer for me. The roads have been blocked for a long time.
I hear many people talking. I am going to play the devil's advocate and also the role of a citizen. I saw the list. We talked about adding $45 to vehicle registration fees. We are talking about a new Champlain Bridge with a toll. What do you think?
Regardless, there will always be cars. We cannot say that it is one or the other. A reality exists and we have to be flexible. How flexible are you in your planning? Where should we get the money?
The money keeps coming from the same pocket. Given the current economic situation, it may be counterproductive to impose too many taxes on people and ask them to pay too much.
These are important external factors to consider when making political decisions. We have philosophized and developed concepts together but we have to remember the reality of the user who has to pay and the worker who has no choice because there is no public transit system. Even if we did provide a public transit system, some still might not be able to access it.
In addition, although the region is 80% urban, there is also a rural reality. We cannot ask people who live in rural communities to move to the city because that is where the action is.
That's the reality check.
How do you manage to make sure that, through those examples I'm giving you, that kind of strategy is doable?
4:55 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
That's an excellent question. I will say a couple of things.
Number one, really my message is to give people more of a choice. Right now if you live in downtown Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver, you have a choice. You don't have to have a car if you don't want one. But if you are in the 905 area, suburban Montreal, or rural communities, obviously you have to have a car because there's no viable transit to get you anywhere, other than the commuter rail during the morning and evening rush hours. What I've heard from my experience in talking to people in the Toronto area is that they're prepared to pay more provided the money is dedicated to providing that increased transit service. That's the number one message I've heard over and over again.
I'll use the GO Transit system as one example. Every time GO puts a new train on, it's instantly full and it's still standing room only. It's a bottomless pit in terms of demand. In fact, what we need to do is to not have this rush hour commuter service. We need to convert the GO system into a regional rapid transit service, and it should be electrified, no question about it. But the fact of the matter is that you shouldn't even have to have a schedule. You should know there's going to be a train every 15 minutes, like in Europe. That's the direction we have to go in.
With respect to cars, there will always be cars, whether they're gasoline, electric, or whatever, and I fully understand that. The thing is that people will need to provide that range of choices and options.
4:55 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
I come back to choice over and over again.
One last comment I'll make follows up on the comment earlier about the needs of seniors. If you add up the population, everyone from 0 to 16 doesn't drive, for obvious reasons; they can't have a licence. A lot of people over 65 or 75 don't drive, for various reasons. If you add up those numbers, it's a shocking number; a high percentage of the population doesn't drive. They have no access to cars whatsoever. So this is important for the daily life cycle that you talked about here earlier, the shopping, the doctors, the various needs people have. It will only get bigger and more important.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Mr. Bedford, you are not the first to say it, but I have felt from the beginning that we should be making the move from consolidated funds to dedicated funds with regard to this strategy and its funding.
There is currently an infrastructure problem. Our infrastructure is crumbling. We therefore have to think about fixing it. However, we also have to look to the future. This is not just one amount of money. In fact, this involves two amounts.
I am asking you the same question that I asked the directors of Transport Action Canada earlier. Should the federal government have a fund dedicated to infrastructure and devote part of it to public transit or, to truly be successful, should the government have a fund that is devoted exclusively to public transit?
5 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Whatever the final resolution on the source of funding, whether it's dedicated or allocated to just transport or broader infrastructure, it has to be sustainable, continuous over time. That's the key issue. You cannot plan and build these kinds of transit systems in five, six, or seven years. Everyone knows that. I understand the financial pressures involved in a time-limit infrastructure program. But we have to have a solution with a mixed revenue source that's dependable over time. Otherwise, we're not going to be able to do this stuff.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Thank you.
I appreciate your being here today. You're someone who has “been there, done that”, I guess we can say. You spent your career focusing on these issues, so you're valuable to us. You can give us a good perspective, because you've spent 40 years thinking about these issues. So I appreciate your being here to share that expertise with us.
You were talking about the role of the federal government and how the interplay between the different levels of government might be marshalled to meet funding challenges. I sense from your comments that you support something along the lines of the gas tax model. What you're seeing there is a long-term, stable, predictable source of funding that allows municipalities to plan. They know the funding they can expect and are able to set priorities. This way, the city is able to look at the challenges and make the best decisions for the community. That's what I think I was hearing from you.
5 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Local municipalities are closest to the people so they know the lay of the land. There's no question about that. I don't care whether it's Yellowknife or Toronto. Neither of them can afford the kinds of transit services needed for today and in the future. We will soon be adding 16 million people to the population. By and large, that population is going to go into major city regions.
So this problem is going to get worse and worse. I covered only what you might call a top-10 list. Each one of those lines generates $1 billion a year in the greater Toronto area. We need to come up with $3 billion a year. It's a piece of cake to do it, but you have to have the political will. You have to have the people supporting it and you have to pick the right combination of tools.
Two other issues you might want to think about are income tax and sales tax. In Europe cities get a portion of the income tax. It goes straight to the cities and they fund transit and all kinds of needs that way. In lots of jurisdictions around the world, like the U.S., they get a dedicated piece of the sales tax—one cent, two cents, whatever. This grows with the economy, and it's very important in meeting the funding needs of these transportation systems.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB
You're not suggesting that the federal government alone would be responsible for our transportation needs; you're not suggesting that. You believe all levels of government should be involved.
5 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
I'll be clear: I think this is everybody's problem. I think the federal government has a role, along with provincial and local governments as well as the people.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB
The types of projects, how a city moves forward as planned, a city's transportation strategy—these are decisions you want to see made locally. You want to see those decisions made by the communities. Is that correct?
5:05 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Well, primarily, but I'll tell you that even now, that's not the case. The Province of Ontario has a big voice in decisions as they affect the greater Toronto area through the Metrolinx organization.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB
I suppose this is somewhat unrelated to our topic, but it is something that was in your presentation. You mentioned something very briefly. You had a slide that referred to gas prices in various countries throughout the world. We saw Canada somewhere in the middle. You referred very briefly to Canada being in the middle, but the Netherlands is the one we see at the bottom at $2.66. You said you felt that at some point we would be the one with the highest prices.
It tweaked me. Why do you see that being the case? What is going to change in those countries that is different from what will happen here in Canada so that you will see Canada become the country with the highest-priced fuel?
5:05 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Let me be totally clear. What I'm saying is that gas will never get cheaper than it is today. That's the first principle. Whether it rises to the level it is in the Netherlands or to the level it is in France or the U.K., I don't know. But the fact is, it's going to get more expensive. Peak oil prices, for all the arguments we all know.... It's just a matter of time.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Am I safe in assuming that I misunderstood you, then, with your comment? You weren't suggesting that Canada was going to become the country with the highest priced fuel. You were just--
5:05 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
We're going up, not down.
