Evidence of meeting #5 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, thank you for reminding me to mention Sir John A. I think we have to capture the kind of spirit that Sir John A. did in building a railway, under impossible conditions so long ago. I know we can do this, though.
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Thank you.
This is a hard act to follow, Mr. Chair.
You have a slide that talks about different pricing. Could you bring us back to that slide and walk us through what each of them means, and the pros and cons?
4:45 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Is it that one there?
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Yes, tell us more about them. What works best, and what are the pros and cons of each?
4:45 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Basically, right now we hardly have any of these. We get funding for transit systems from the transit fares, of course, and a certain amount from....
I'll walk you down the list. This is something we've looked at in the context of Metrolinx. We basically figured out, as I said before—that map I showed you of Metrolinx—what we need to build over the next 25 years is a $75 billion cost. If you translate it down over 25 years, it means we have to come up with $3 billion of new money every year for the next 25 years.
If we're serious about building it, that's the context of this. So we took a look and said, okay, for the greater Toronto-Hamilton area, what are the possible tools? The first one is road pricing, which are road tolls, call it what you want. If you said it's 10¢ a kilometre on all the 400-series highways—the Don Valley, the Gardiner—all at once in the GTHA, that would produce $1 billion a year forever.
If you put a surcharge of a loonie on every non-residential parking space in the region, at the shopping malls, at the office buildings, or whatever, or just a loonie a day—
4:45 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Could you focus on the ones that the federal government can do? I don't think we can deal with the price of parking because that's municipal.
4:45 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
No, but I thought you wanted to walk down the list.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Yes.
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
It could be. The gas tax, as you well know, is something you have done, and I'm very glad that you have. The province and the federal government are partners in that, so that's a possibility.
In terms of operating grants, capital grants, obviously those are areas the federal government could consider looking at.
The sales tax issue is obviously another one. Many cities in the United States—in fact, four years ago when the last U.S. election was on, Los Angeles County had a referendum to increase the sales tax by a penny. They needed 66% to pass; they got 68% approval.
This November, in the U.S., Atlanta and Seattle have the same proposal for a sales tax referendum. And here is the proviso: all the money is dedicated to fund transit. It doesn't go into the general coffers. Obviously, debt financing is another thing.
I would say this is the short list of about 16 tools that Metrolinx is looking at.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Is there a forum where the federal, provincial, and municipal governments can have a discussion on which fits? I would imagine the operating grants would be provincial and territorial, right?
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Yes.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
Whereas the capital grants and the gas tax would be federal.
Have there been any discussions, has there been any forum, on who does what and how? It's clear what the funding gap is. It's clear that some money has to be found somewhere, and you have all the tools.
What I've noticed is that in Calgary, for example, the residents said their number one priority, what makes them unhappy, what would make them happier, is public transit. We see in greater Vancouver that the mayor has just said they would increase taxes--of this kind or that kind--in order to get their Evergreen Line ready.
So there are pockets of things going on, and it's not clear how they're connected with each other, or if they're connected at all.
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
I agree with you, and there have been discussions, obviously, with municipalities and the provinces, certainly in this context. That's one of the reasons I suggested, just for the consideration of the committee, the idea of these tripartite forums, to talk about these issues and figure out who does what. I think there's an opportunity for the federal government in certain areas here to be a partner in that context.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
There's been discussion of whether it should be a strategy, a plan, or some kind of ad hoc discussion. What makes sense to you?
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
I think you have to have the discussion first. It's like the image I had of the two children talking to each other. We have to have a discussion, a conversation, not an argument. The fact is--and this is why I love that this is an all-party committee--that in many ways it doesn't matter who is in power in the government, this problem is not going away. It's only going to get worse and worse. And it's related to the competitiveness of the country, the competitiveness of the city regions, and the economic health of our future.
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
A dialogue first--
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
--to figure out what the strategy or plan might look like. These things don't happen overnight, as you all know, but I think you have to start somewhere, and this is an excellent place to start.
4:50 p.m.
NDP
Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON
You haven't seen that opportunity recently? There hasn't been that kind of discussion?
4:50 p.m.
Adjunct Professor, City Planning, University of Toronto and Ryerson University, and Former Chief Planner, City of Toronto, As an Individual
Not that I've been aware of, no.
