Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee.
My name is Paul Moist. I'm the president of the Canadian Union of Public Employees. We're very happy to appear in front of you and spend a few moments talking about infrastructure and its financing.
We work alongside the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. We have tens of thousands of municipal members and a total of just over 600,000 members across Canada. I was pleased to interface to some degree with the government as part of the FCM's municipal infrastructure forum.
We're going to focus today largely on public-private partnerships vis-à-vis infrastructure financing. I guess we approach it from a public policy point of view. Our overriding concern is with public finances and the delivery of services, but we don't question for a moment the historical partnership between the private sector and the public sector.
You folks are all familiar with that traditional procurement and the issuance of tenders for design and for building. For the most part, that served Canada for decades. The public sector provides financing usually, historically, because it can borrow at a lower rate, and the public sector in Canada generally delivers the services in structures that are built by the private sector.
This new realm that we're in, the so-called P3s, or public-private partnerships, sees many different functions coming open for debate and discussion now. It continues to be used as a form of, at times, off-book financing and is quite controversial in many quarters. The notion that you can spend more and do more infrastructure with little money down is one that you should examine really closely.
In our presentation, at the bottom of page 1, we talk a little bit about the United Kingdom. We note that the health minister of the current government in the U.K. talks about the health system being brought to the “brink of financial collapse” by their version of public finance initiatives. One of the witnesses who appeared before the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, Professor Siemiatycki, called the U.K. experience a kind of ”an accounting mirage”. We don't want to replicate that experience in Canada, at least in CUPE's view. The price tag in the U.K. for outstanding PFI liabilities is just over £300 billion, which is almost $500 billion in Canadian dollars, or about $20,000 per family in the United Kingdom. It rests with the public realm now to deal with this level of debt.
In comparative terms, Canada is where the U.K. was before their P3 bubble burst. We're nowhere near as exposed as they are, but I guess what we say to you, Mr. Chairman and committee members, is to take a close look at what's going around.
In the last week, the Auditor General here in Ontario gave his preliminary results on the Mississauga gas plant. That was a form of P3 to deliver energy services in southern Ontario. It cost almost four times the actual construction cost to get out of that deal. Fourteen per cent interest rates to hedge funds based in the United States and the Cayman Islands. We're nowhere near the bottom of this one yet. In my opinion, this brought down the premier of Ontario. It's a P3.
In Quebec, the provincial auditor has found the McGill University Health Centre P3 much more costly than the public option. The auditors have not finished their work yet. Just two years ago, this project received the gold award in project financing from the Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships. Today, warrants have been issued for the arrest of the former McGill University Health Centre CEO. SNC-Lavalin has been charged with fraud related to this project. You're all aware that the World Bank decided last week that SNC-Lavalin is in the penalty box for 10 years. The Government of Quebec has announced that there will be no more P3 hospitals in Quebec. The last chapter has not been written on the McGill health centre.
The U.K. Conservative government has moved towards restricting operations and maintenance as part of future P3s, as well as increasing transparency. We're kind of moving in the opposite direction, with PPP Canada effectively stating that operations and maintenance must be part of P3s that receive financing through the P3 Canada fund.
I met a month ago with the mayor of Regina. They're applying to the P3 Canada fund, as they've been advised it's the only way to access 25% financing of their $200 million waste water treatment plant. The mayor's in the Regina Leader-Post saying it's not his preferred option but it's the only way to access federal money.
Federal and provincial P3 agencies—not all provinces, but certainly Partnerships BC, and New Brunswick has an agency—are charged with the impossible task to promote P3s and to assess P3s. There's a conflict there. I'm not sure how you do both.
We know, when the truth comes out and the evidence comes out, that Brampton P3 hospital should have been built privately—of course—but it should not have been financed privately. The Auditor General delivered to Mr. McGuinty, when he assumed office in, I guess, 2004, the second year of his mandate, that he could have saved $200 million just by financing the Brampton hospital through conventional means, through the public realm.
I want to be clear that there's no question about who builds these things. There's no question about things being built well. There's no question about things being built on time.
Mr. McGuinty entered his premiership in 2003 questioning a very successful P3, one that's been written about, and that's Highway 407. It's a good highway. It functions very well. It's well built. It was built on time. It was a good investment for some investors. Mr. McGuinty thought the 99-year deal was a terrible investment for Ontarians. He wanted, in the public interest, to get at that 99-year deal. He went to court in his first six months in office, and was told that the deal was bulletproof from the point of view of the private consortium. It's a very good highway, built properly, built on time, and very good for certain investors, including some pension funds. But is it in the public interest for the amount of money the citizens of Ontario are paying for a highway that many don't drive on?
Lastly, Mr. Chairman—because time is running out—the committee is considering red tape reduction as well as P3s. We've read with interest Minister Clement's comments about reducing regulations and getting the burden off of businesses doing business with government. We kind of find that ironic, because more red tape is being added to the trade union movement. Bill C-377, which is still before the Senate, adds an extraordinary level of bureaucracy at a time when downsizing is occurring within the federal realm.
The initial transaction costs for P3s, in terms of red tape, are more than double the estimated transaction costs for traditional procurement. I know that many smaller municipalities have petitioned all levels of government that they can't afford to compete even in bidding for P3s. They don't have the capacity. If red tape is part of your considerations here, there's a lot of red tape associated with just the consideration of the P3 process.
Local governments have to put their own money forward, and they're ultimately responsible for these services. We think they know what works best. Some opt for P3s; many don't. Some feel like they're being forced to right now.
Lastly, you're to consider as well increased private sector infrastructure—the private sector investing in itself. This is not our area of expertise, but as trade union leaders we do get to meet with the Governor of the Bank of Canada on a yearly basis. He's been very open to meeting with us. We asked him about his comments earlier this year about the private sector sitting on over $500 billion in capital and not reinvesting in and retooling their physical plants. Some people have been critical of Mr. Carney for making those comments, but we think your government, and governments prior to you, have tried to create an environment for business to flourish in Canada, including cutting their taxes.
When they're sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars in capital, and there isn't really an evident labour force development strategy in the country—what's happening in the country is very controversial, including the temporary foreign worker program—we think that businesses, when you're helping their bottom line, have a responsibility to reinvest in Canada. We kind of agree with Governor Carney. Most of our comments were about P3s.
Last, Mr. Chairman, one witness who couldn't be here today is Professor John Loxley, and we've tabled, in both languages, a piece of work that we commissioned Professor Loxley to do. It's simply a guide on what questions municipalities should ask regarding P3s. We've distributed this to all local governments in Canada, and I commend that to you. I wish John were here. The value for money, the risk transference, the illusion of that is sometimes more than the reality.
We're very supportive of the Government of Manitoba bringing forward legislation to force more transparency at the front end of these infrastructure decisions.