Transport Committee on March 27th, 2014

[Jamal Hematian]

Let me elaborate on that one.

Let's for a minute forget about the accidents. I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying from an engineering point of view.

When you want to make changes you have to have a reason for that. What are the reasons for change, based on our experiences, based on data? It's not what you or I think, or this and that.

You collect data, let's say over five years. You record it, do a root cause analysis, figure out what's going on, and then you put your money where you will get the best value.

We had the legacy cars, we have good-faith cars. As you said, where do we go from here?

If we don't make our decisions based on real fact data nobody can guarantee when the new rules come in, how long it's going to last. You may come back again in two years and want to change it.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

By comparison, in the auto industry, if you want to come up with a new vehicle platform, that's actually a five- to eight-year process. It involves a lot of different engineering. It involves a lot of different questions about supply chain. I would suggest that the supply chain is a little more vertical and less horizontal for the rail industry. But having said that, there is development and lead-up time. Even in setting a new standard there has to be some consideration about what that looks like.

Bottom line, Mr. Hematian, it's not a simple snap your fingers and we have a new standard, right? There are a lot of moving parts to this that have to come into play.

[Jamal Hematian]

Absolutely.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Okay. That's fair enough.

Maybe the opposition will want to clarify what standard they would like to move to if they are talking about a phase-out.

On the question of consultations, the minister has said on the public record that there are consultations with advisory councils here. She has a counterpart in the United States she's engaged with on the question of new standards. In the United States they have their own domestic internal process to arrive at a standard that involves a lot of players. It's not just rail companies, it's lease companies, it's a number of others. Presumably that includes manufacturers.

I'm going ask whether you've been consulted by Transport Canada in its process regarding possible new standards.

[Jamal Hematian]

I told you I'm sitting on the task force for tank cars. This is the U.S.

This is about 50 to 60 key people in the industry, as you said, from railroads, shippers, car builders, all different sectors. Transport Canada is there too. It's a part of a collection of all the people talking about different aspects of it.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

In the auto industry, in order to abate the costs of changeover in different products moving from an old bumper standard to another, for example, a harmonized standard is a desirable thing because it allows them to abate their cost over an entire North American market rather than having segmented markets.

Is a harmonized approach to a new standard actually the right way to go?

[Max Vanderby]

Can I add one thing?

In regard to the safety appliances on cars, on the safety task force, Transport Canada has been heavily involved. That's basically a harmonized standard that they will adopt at the same time as the FRA and the AAR. Just as an example we do have standards that have been done already.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Just as a professional opinion in terms of a new standard, is it your position that there should be a redesign of DOT-111s into some sort of a new car, or in other words, a fresh approach on that? Or is it a further refining of the design that would produce an improved safety result? What's your professional opinion on that, Mr. Hematian?

[Jamal Hematian]

I think we have to look at it as a system. It's not just the car design operation. Other elements come into it. The best way to make a decision is to go based on data, to collect data. A university in the U.S. has collected data over 10 years. I'm not sure if it was Illinois or.... I'm not sure about the name. I can get it for you. They investigated all the incidents that happened. They did a good job. It's not perfect, but it's something to start building on.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Are they collecting data on the new DOT-111 design?

[Jamal Hematian]

On all tank cars, it doesn't matter, they are collecting it. That's where I got my data. I cannot give you details of it because of confidentiality for that meeting. I'm just letting you know that you can access that data and figure out what the data is. I'm saying that—

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Maybe our analysts could find that, Mr. Chair.

[Jamal Hematian]

Yes. Based on the data, we know where we have to go.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Your first five minutes are up. You have another one if you care for it. Okay? No more questions. We've exhausted the rounds.

[An hon. member]

We have 10 minutes left.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

Can I ask one question, just one question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Okay. I went over here.... If they want to give you the five minutes, fine.

[Mike Sullivan, NDP, York South—Weston, ON]

I'm not going to take five minutes. I just have one question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Well, I have a couple of clarifications as well that I have the right....

Mr. Boudreault, in your opening marks, you said that there should basically be.... You were talking about the fact that there was one conductor on the train. I'm not getting into whether that's correct or incorrect, but you basically said that you needed another guy there to make sure the other guy was doing his job right. Now, I hope you don't really believe that, from that standpoint. Have you ever heard of the term “being able to work independently”? Have you heard that term? If—

[Richard Boudreault]

I have no—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

—you're interviewing a potential employee, quite often you'll ask them, “do you think that you can work independently?”, or something to that effect. So you've heard that term?

[Richard Boudreault]

Well, I have no—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Yes or no?

[Richard Boudreault]

My answer has to be a little more than yes or no. I think the question deserves—