Evidence of meeting #23 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was goods.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Ballantyne, in your presentation you were talking about your short-haul people, who are not necessarily also resourced in the same fashion as the long-haul people or the bigger rail companies. Are your members going to be able to provide that information?
President, Freight Management Association of Canada
The members of our association are the people who buy freight services, such as Canadian Tire, the grain companies, and various mining companies. Our membership is made up of the people who have the freight that is moved by railways and trucks, and so on.
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
But don't they have a responsibility to make sure the information is made available on what goods are being transported?
President, Freight Management Association of Canada
Yes, they do, and of course when goods are loaded, whether it's on rail or truck or whatever, that information is provided to the carrier. If they are dangerous goods, there are the processes in place that the fire chiefs have talked about. That goes to CANUTEC and, where necessary, is then available to the first responders. So yes, they do have a responsibility—
Liberal
Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC
It's done on a timely basis. Do they take weekends off or nights, not reporting what they're shipping?
President, Freight Management Association of Canada
Every time that a shipper puts a shipment to a carrier, they produce a document called a bill of lading. A bill of lading says what the stuff is that is being shipped. That goes directly to the carrier. It's part of the whole financial process between the carrier and the owner of the goods, to make sure that the carrier gets paid for shipping the goods, but it also is the source of information for the railway company and for CANUTEC, and so on, where that's appropriate.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
Sorry, your time has expired, Mr. Pacetti.
Mr. Watson, you have seven minutes.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Mr. Chair, thank you to our witnesses for appearing today. We appreciate not only your testimony but your ongoing interest and participation in increasing the safety of transport by rail, and our ability to respond.
I want to start with Mr. Benson. I just want to probe your comments a little further here.
First, you said there's no safety culture in Canada. Then later you said there's no SMS. I want to be clear what we're suggesting here. Just to clarify your own remarks, are you saying that no companies have SMS, safety management systems, or that they haven't been able to produce a safety culture? I want to be clear about the distinction between the two.
Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada
Certainly, by law, they're required to have a safety management system. But what we're saying is that it's something we don't participate in, we don't see it, we have no knowledge of it, there is no training on it, and because of the disciplinary nature of the industry, there is no safety culture.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
I wanted to be clear about that because at one point I think interchangeably you said there was no SMS—
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
—and we need to be precise on the record for that.
No, you don't need to apologize.
Dr. Fleming, from Saint Mary's University, who appeared here, did point out for the benefit of the committee that safety management systems don't necessarily produce a safety culture, but they actually require a safety culture, which is shared values, attitudes, and norms with respect to safety.
We heard from Unifor at this committee. I asked whether their members were surveyed on a regular basis about their perceptions of safety. I'm going to ask you the same question, Mr. Benson, about the Teamsters members, or Mr. Beatty, if you want to take that question. Are your members either interviewed or surveyed on some regular basis about their perceptions about safety?
President, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, Teamsters Canada
Not that I'm aware of.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Not that you're aware of, okay.
The Senate committee, when it was looking at rail safety and other aspects, pipelines, and others, on page 9 of its report stated that interviews and perception surveys of both management and employees are not currently mandatory.
Would you recommend that it be a mandatory requirement of safety management systems under law, that they must regularly interview members for their perception of safety within the company?
President, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, Teamsters Canada
The short answer is yes.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Very good. That's important for the committee.
We could get into other questions about whether you can bridge the cultural divide with respect to the leadership there. I don't know how you overcome that with respect to regulation and other things. Mr. Vena, from CN, was here at this committee. He said they did 1,000 audits a day “to see what our employees are doing”, as if employees are to blame for safety in the system.
I want to turn for a moment now, if I might.... Actually, before I do, would you like to comment on the effect of Bill S-4, and whether or not what happened in the upgrades to the Railway Safety Act are in any way changing the structural relationship or hold the promise to changing a structural relationship between unions and the company? By that, I'm talking about the integration of health and safety committees with the company.
Mr. Benson, maybe you want to comment.
Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada
The committee worked very diligently on that, as we did, for several years. I think it's a real turning point and we note that. The funny thing is that we're here talking about the past and I think the future has great promise.
I've only met Mr. Mongeau once. He talked about how we have to work like a family. If you look at Mr. Brehl's comments about how we're second, third, and fourth generation railroaders, this is something that's in their blood, in their families.
I think it holds promise if the companies are willing to realize that this is going to be productive for them. It's going to increase public confidence to move goods. It's actually going to make money all around and produce a safer environment. We're certainly willing to work with them and we think the amendments are very good.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Okay.
Do you want to comment on your union's position on the use of video and audio recording in locomotive cabs? I did ask that question of Unifor and I think of VIA as well when they were here. I'd like to understand your position on that.
Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada
Thanks for the question.
The industry did have a study and looked at it. The conclusion was that there was no probative value to having it. Secondly there was also an opinion by Justice that in fact you couldn't go forward with it unless there was voluntary compliance.
The company said it would cost $8 million—these are multi-billion dollar companies—and they weren't willing to spend the money for TSB purposes unless they could use it for discipline.
Notwithstanding that, we are moving forward with VIA, because VIA is willing to comply, if you like, with the law and the precedence. Clearly things like video recorders and hands-only audio recordings to our loops, like the ones pilots use, which are wipeable when you leave, for TSB purposes only, not for any discipline or other uses.... There are lots of other things like not using it when they are.... Again, we're working with VIA.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
So your position, if I could summarize then, is that you're supportive of the TSB's recommendation, which comes with certain caveats about how that information is used. I think that's effectively what I'm hearing. The caveats would protect the privacy of people.
Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada
I think it's something we'll look at and we have looked at.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Mr. Boissonneault, maybe there isn't a simple answer to this. I just don't know. I'll be frank with you. Can you talk about how many different means of combatting dangerous goods in a derailment incident we could be dealing with? You mentioned class B foam. Are there other types or ways of combatting, and what types of specialized equipment would be required for either a regionalized or a national response in the case of derailments?