Transport Committee on May 1st, 2014

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Okay, very good. I just want to be clear about that because the government has created the authorities for it. However, more in line perhaps with what the Auditor General said, some of those recommendations now need to be put in, so it's the regulation that's the issue here right now.

Mr. Therien, while we're on the subject of improving safety management systems, in terms of safety culture we've had witnesses who have been here before talking about one of the important components being worker perception of safety surveys. Some of our union representatives testified that it happens, and some said it doesn't happen with their membership. But none of this is mandatory in a safety management system, as I understand it. Should this committee be recommending that those types of surveys for measurement be a mandatory component of a safety management system?

[Emile Therien]

I think it's time to review SMS and whatever goes along with that review. I would agree with you.

Again, as I said, it's very controversial and there are a lot of questions about it.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Tweed, welcome back to the committee. You're not swinging the gavel this time. I haven't had a chance to grill you. I'll try to be as tough as I can on you—no, not actually.

The initial response car that you raised is an interesting concept. Perhaps it's one that Transport Canada should examine. You've said that it would be located directly behind the engine and carry retardants.

We did hear from the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs, though, that there could be literally dozens of particular means of combatting fires. How would one decide what goes on the car? You may not even have a uniform train in terms of the dangerous goods that are on it, so how would you handle multiple different chemicals, or possible means of—

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

We'll let Mr. Tweed answer that and then your time is up.

[Mervin Tweed]

I think what we do is that we put together a proposal of what should and shouldn't be on that particular car and then we take it out to the private sector and ask them if they would agree with it, based on what we are carrying now, and what we're proposing to carry into the future.

We recognize that we're not the experts on this and we would ask the experts to make those recommendations based on the product that we carry, and on each product.

We carry aviation fuel, which is very volatile, and fortunately we've done it safely for the last 15 years. But we also want to know that we can make better arrangements or improve that situation should it ever occur.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Ms. Morin, for five minutes.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses today.

What interests me in particular are grade crossings. You talked a lot about that. They are really a problem in my riding.

In Montreal West, for example, there is a grade crossing right beside a school. Consequently, there are a lot of children nearby. I understand what you said, that we should increase awareness among young people. However, this is a primary school. So it constantly takes in new students. I think it is good to invest in prevention, but the awareness approach has to be renewed every year, since there are new students every year.

The minister has announced a budget for that. However, it is an ad hoc budget; it will not last. It will provide help for one year, but this will have to be done again the following year.

Mr. Marit, you said that some aspects of the regulations were a little less clear. Apart from prevention, what do you think we should do about grade crossings? For example, since the crossing I mentioned in Montreal West is very dangerous, they would like to build a tunnel or a trench. However, Montreal West cannot afford to do that.

What do you think we should do to make these grade crossings safe?

[David Marit]

I can only speak from Saskatchewan's perspective, and I know issues in higher-density population areas are a lot different than those where we are. What we've been talking about in our province for regulations at crossings is that there has to be community engagement and community involvement on what type of crossings are wanted; whether it is lighted gates or whether it's a stop sign that does it for some communities.

I think that's the comment we're trying to make. There's a cost that comes with that, a cost shared by the municipality and the railway. There's ongoing maintenance on those crossings and any other upgrades that have to be made are also cost-shared. The community has to be engaged on what type of crossings are wanted because there will be a cost attached to them.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Do you think the federal government should have a role to play in this area, or should we assign that role solely to the owners and municipalities?

[David Marit]

I think that's between the municipalities and the companies.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

All right, thank you very much.

Mr. Demers, I very much enjoyed your analogy with highway speeds. You said that speeds were not lowered on highways in poor condition. I thought that sentence clearly explained the situation to us.

Do you have a timetable? When we notice that a section of track is damaged or that repairs are necessary, how much time should they take? Do you have an idea of the time it should take before the repairs are made? What should be done before they are made? Do we reduce speeds? What kind of leeway should be allowed in this area?

[Jacques Demers]

I still think it is too bad that was a joke. I use that analogy to make people laugh, but it is unfortunate. You are right. It is so illogical to think that way.

Roads are used by cars, vehicles that are far less dangerous, present fewer risks and can brake more quickly, and yet we do the necessary work on them. On the other hand, we think differently about railways and trains 12,000 feet long. Rebuilding rails almost seems like a crazy thought.

You asked me some questions about how long it should take, but I cannot really say. My impression is that some sections require extensive work and that it will all take time, although I cannot say exactly how much. In any case, it has to start. What we need is a plan that shows us that improvements are being made.

It is a bit like for the question we were asked earlier about goods. We would like to know in real time. That is not yet the case, but we nevertheless think this is a step forward. We would like to be able to do the same thing in this case. We can talk about the time it will take once we are on the same page. I think the problem is that we are not starting from the same place. Then perhaps we can say it will take three months, six months or a year.

I find it hard to understand how the speed limit on certain rail lines can be kept at 10 miles an hour for five years. I am thinking of certain sections, but I know there are many others in Canada where the speed limit has been 10 miles an hour for about 10 years. That is unreasonable.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Who do you think should bear the repair costs, the railway owners or the municipalities?

They often toss the ball back and forth. We saw that in New Brunswick. The minister said she would not allocate money to repair a section of track owned by a company already making millions of dollars in profits.

You have to set up detours at that point. To whom do you send the bill for those repairs?

[Jacques Demers]

We already know there was a plan. For the line I am talking about, the MMA line, there was indeed a plan. The third party was subsidized at the time, but the company did not even take that money to do the work. That is what I resent.

It is all the more shocking to think that the company has subsidies but is not required to spend the money. It is not even a matter of cost allocation. First there should be an obligation. Once that obligation is established, we can consider allocating costs. Is it advantageous at the provincial or federal level to have rail lines, to have new companies that can join them? Perhaps we can debate that question. However, first we have to admit that it makes no sense to allow rail lines or sections to fall into complete disuse.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

That is fine. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you very much, Mr. Demers.

Now we'll move to Mr. Braid for five minutes.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today and for providing excellent presentations and contributing to this important study.

Mr. Marit, it's good to see you again.

I thought I would start with a question or two for you, and I regret, unlike my colleague down at the end of the table, I'm not from Saskatchewan.

Mr. Marit, one of the many measures that Transport Canada and our government has taken since the terrible tragedy at Lac-Mégantic is to ensure that shippers who are rail companies and shippers who are transporting dangerous goods test those goods and properly label them before shipment.

Could you comment on that more recent requirement?

[David Marit]

Thank you.

We have heard that. I think it's very important that they've done that and that we look at it, because even in the province of Saskatchewan with petroleum, we're finding that there are three really different types of petroleum being exported from Saskatchewan. We have the Bakken formation, the heavy oil, and the crude coming out of the Shaunavon play that you can virtually throw a flame into and it won't ignite. I think that's a good point to make, Mr. Braid, that we really have to look at the labelling of the goods so that the communities know what's on those cars when they're going through.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

So, this is an initiative that your member communities have welcomed?

[David Marit]

Yes.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

That's excellent.

We've had some discussion this morning about the agreement that involved the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and rail shippers to ensure that municipalities are aware of the types of goods that are being transported through their communities. Could you weigh in on the adequacy of the current arrangement, whether there's room for improvement, what that improvement may look like, and whether you were involved specifically through the FCM with discussions on this arrangement?

[David Marit]

Thank you for that. Yes, actually my colleague, Jacques and I both sit on the FCM national safety review committee, so we have been engaged on this side of it.

Forgive me—the first part of your question was about...?

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Could you comment on the adequacy of current arrangements in terms of ensuring that municipalities and first responders are receiving the information they need so they can adequately train and prepare?

[David Marit]

What we have done—and I know there have been some questions about the products moving through—is to be very respectful of the industry and also of the communities. We have said that if you know the product is going through or what types of product are going through, you can train your firefighters and you can have the equipment you need to look after that. If new products are going through, then we ask the railways to let the communities know. I think if there's a past history on those rail lines that is not changing, they can ramp up. I think the process we followed was correct. I wouldn't want to go to where you would want to know daily, because I think that could bring in other very serious concerns.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

So, am I hearing from you that from your perspective, in your belief, the current arrangement is adequate and provides municipalities and first responders with the information they need to ensure that first responders are properly trained and properly prepared?