Transport Committee on June 3rd, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

I'd like to thank our witnesses and welcome them here today.

We have, from the National Airlines Council of Canada, Mr. Marc-André O'Rourke, executive director; Mr. Samuel Elfassy, senior director, corporate safety and environment, Air Canada; Captain Scott Wilson, vice-president, safety, security and quality, WestJet; David Deveau, vice president, safety, quality and environment, Jazz Aviation; and Captain Jacques Mignault, senior director, safety, quality and security, Air Transat.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

I understand, Mr. O'Rourke, that you're going to lead off.

[Marc-André O'Rourke, Executive Director, National Airlines Council of Canada]

Good morning.

Thank you to the committee for the invitation to appear here today as part of a review of the Canadian transportation safety regime. We really do appreciate the opportunity to discuss our experience with the transportation of dangerous goods and the implementation of safety management systems, SMS for short, as it relates to aviation in Canada.

As the chair mentioned, my name is Marc-André O'Rourke. I'm the executive director of the National Airlines Council of Canada, NACC.

The NACC is a trade association that represents Canada's major airlines. Our members are Air Canada, Air Transat, Jazz, and WestJet.

We make sure that air travel is safe, sustainable and competitive by working with the government and industry stakeholders to implement policies, acts and regulations that support a world-class transportation system that is essential to Canada's economic growth and prosperity.

Many of our council's activities are undertaken by our subcommittees, which represent the combined expertise of our member carriers. Our subcommittees, namely safety, flight operations, and maintenance and engineering, work together to maintain and enhance world-class safety standards.

Given SMS's systematic approach, it's very important to note the collaboration and information sharing between all areas of an airline, from the actual operations to all the support functions. SMS is the concern not only of safety departments, it's a company-wide shared responsibility.

Today I'm joined by representatives of our safety subcommittee, who will share their expertise with you in a few minutes. They are Samuel Elfassy, senior director at Air Canada; David Deveau, vice-president at Jazz Aviation; Captain Scott Wilson, vice-president at WestJet; and Captain Jacques Mignault, senior director at Air Transat.

NACC member airlines directly employ over 43,000 people and carry more than 50 million passengers a year. Together, our members serve more than 60 Canadian communities. They represent 87% of the domestic traffic and 64% of total airline traffic in Canada.

Most importantly, our members' deliberate and unwavering commitment to safety is ingrained in everything they do. Nothing is more important to our members than making sure the passenger gets to his destination safely.

Aviation is the safest mode of transport. Today, modern aviation is safer than it has ever been before. This achievement is not the work of chance. It's the result of a comprehensive and systematic approach to safety taken by the industry.

To the NACC airlines, safety is not just a matter of following the rules. Safety is about proactively managing risks and hazards that go well beyond the minimum requirements established by civil aviation authorities. Safety is the foundation that truly underpins the way an airline is run.

Our carriers have embraced the principles of safety management systems and embarked on a journey which brought about significant and meaningful enhancements to the safety culture that already existed. It's important to note that SMS is internationally recognized by the safety and aviation communities as the most advanced approach to mitigating and ensuring a proper and safe aviation system.

At the outset, I think it's important to take a minute to describe what SMS really is. An SMS system is a holistic approach where policies, processes, and systems are used to proactively identify, mitigate, and eliminate safety hazards and risks. It means that every activity an airline engages in, whether it be the actual flying of the aircraft, the maintenance of the engines, or any of the literally thousands of steps it takes to get from point A to point B, each of these activities is designed in a way that eliminates or reduces the potential for error or accident.

Today I can state unequivocally that transformation toward an improved safety culture has taken place at all levels of our member airlines. From the front-line employees to management to the most senior ranks, our members are fully engaged. This company-wide commitment to safety—again, it's company-wide and all departments are involved—and accountability is a hallmark of an SMS framework.

I would like to be very clear about the fact that the SMS implementation does not mean that airlines are policing themselves with no government inspection or oversight. SMS is a partnership whereby airlines are required to implement even more sophisticated oversight systems than ever before.

No one within the industry is advocating that the oversight and continued surveillance functions have become redundant. On the contrary, certification and oversight activities of Transport Canada are more important than ever and are essential parts of Transport Canada's role.

In fact, under an SMS approach, Transport Canada oversight is much more rigorous and meaningful. SMS adds a layer of safety to what is already the safest transportation industry in the world.

SMS increases oversight by utilizing even more sophisticated risk management techniques, including enhanced two-way communication and data trending. SMS is applied on top of existing safety and quality tools.

The SMS process is not just a general review of procedures and data as it has been suggested by some. SMS includes digging into specific areas of safety to find evidence of what has been done to address these issues.

Airlines must show Transport Canada that they have: one, identified the root cause of a potential problem; two, taken corrective and preventive measures; and three, verified the effectiveness of those measures. SMS seeks to find unknown risks which is far beyond what a regulator on-site inspection can ever do.

However, for oversight to remain effective, it too must evolve. The goal of SMS is to move to a proactive state of safety, a more assertive role in which the air carrier collects and analyzes data to understand the hazards and the safety barriers needed to avert possible negative outcomes.

Any suggestion that air travellers have been exposed to a higher risk as a result of SMS is completely irresponsible and unfounded. It bears repeating that safety is of the utmost importance to our members and their individual and collective safety records speak for themselves.

I'd like now to turn briefly to the issue of dangerous goods, because I know it's also a focus of the committee's review.

As with other modes of transport, the transportation of dangerous goods by air is governed by the transportation of dangerous goods regulations. These regulations incorporate, by reference, the International Civil Aviation Organization technical instructions. These instructions establish the rules for the safe transport of dangerous goods by air, both within Canada and internationally.

It's important to note that the transportation of dangerous goods is highly regulated by a robust and sophisticated international framework. The aviation industry and our members are committed to the proactive and continuous improvement of its standards, processes, and training requirements with respect to transporting dangerous goods by air. NACC members are actively involved in the ongoing revision and updating of the international standards.

To conclude, I would like to reiterate that safety is an absolute priority for the council and its members. Our airlines continue to be strongly committed to improving the safety management system because we know that aviation safety can only be ensured through constant vigilance.

Of course, we are willing to work with Transport Canada, this committee and other stakeholders to ensure the ongoing excellence of aviation safety in Canada.

I would now like to give an opportunity to the members of our safety committee to briefly introduce themselves. As you will see, we have brought with us today representatives who are well placed to discuss issues dealing with SMS implementation and the transportation of dangerous goods.

Thank you very much. Merci beaucoup.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Gentlemen, we have some time if you have any comments.

Mr. Deveau, do you want to go first?

[David Deveau, Vice President, Safety, Quality and Environment, Jazz Aviation, National Airlines Council of Canada]

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

As Marc-André mentioned, it's not only a privilege but a good opportunity for us to appear today and help inform the dialogue around the topic.

As mentioned, I'm David Deveau. I'm the vice president of safety, quality and environment for Jazz. I also have the privilege of being the chair of the safety subcommittee for NACC with these dedicated and respected folks who are at the table here. I'll mention that I'm also the chair of the safety council of a U.S.-based regional airline association. I mention that because it provides perhaps a unique perspective of SMS from outside of our nation and how it's seen by other countries as well.

One of the things you'll find about aviation safety professionals is that they're very passionate about the topic, and I hope that we can provide some value here.

In terms of a few comments, just to open up, I'd like to be quite blunt, if I could, with respect to SMS and how it's viewed, I think, by many colleagues in this realm. It's very much a set of basic principles and concepts that are not new, in fact, and are based on quality management and organizational management sciences. In terms of its effectiveness, I must respectfully but bluntly say that questioning the value of an enterprise system like SMS is really not a rational argument by those who are informed about what SMS actually is. If I can draw a parallel akin to a financial management system or a human resources management system, it's a sophisticated, structured program based on very sound principles. Really, there's no other way to view its impact on aviation but as an evolution of what was already a very strong safety basis certainly in Canada.

As I mentioned, with respect to the perspective that others may have on SMS, I have to be very clear that when I talk to colleagues in the United States in particular, and even overseas, Canada's aviation safety system is considered to be the best and safest system on the planet, frankly. Indeed, I know that they collaborate and discuss SMS and what's happening in Canada both with operators and with Transport Canada.

For us, and speaking for Jazz, what SMS has done is it has provided a framework to increase the sophistication of what we have always done in aviation with additional tools and has created a much more integrated way of managing risk within the organization. There are many focus areas that SMS has brought for airlines, including a very important focus on organizational culture, a shared culture of safety, so that it's every single person in the organization who shares the accountability to ensure that risk is identified and managed properly.

It also focuses very carefully on organizational factors. If you were to step back in time, you would find that the focus on safety, in general terms, including aviation at a certain point, was very much about the individual and perhaps what the individual didn't do or whether there was error involved. SMS creates a need for us to examine what the organization is doing: systemic issues, root causes. Again, I've used the word “sophistication”, but it really has brought a new layer of sophistication to what we do. It really has done this. Again, speaking for Jazz in my case, it's provided a road map for us to improve on, again, a very strong basis of safety.

With respect to our interaction with the regulator, it has also changed that in a very positive way as well. Although we continue to see the direct surveillance and inspection activity, our interactions and our work with the regulator is frankly much more meaningful than it has been in the past. There is a much greater expectation on airlines under an SMS program that we must demonstrate to the regulator. Certainly if the committee is interested in hearing some more examples on that, I'm happy to expand on that.

I did want to just open up with those initial comments to offer the perspective of one airline.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you, Mr. Deveau.

Mr. Elfassy, do you have any comments?

[Samuel Elfassy, Senior Director, Corporate Safety and Environment, Air Canada, National Airlines Council of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's a privilege to be here before you this morning.

I'll provide a brief background on my role at Air Canada. I've been with Air Canada approaching 27 years. I've had the privilege to serve as the senior director of safety, environment and quality. I've also served within the airline over the course of those years with in-flight operations and in other areas. I've also been fortunate to have sat in on a number of working group sessions and meetings over the years with Transport Canada in the early development and then ongoing promulgation of the rules associated with SMS. So I have the benefit and the luxury of recalling and understanding what the spirit and the intent were during the early regulatory development.

The scope and responsibilities and the accountabilities that I have across our profile speak mostly to the oversight that we have as a department within Air Canada. We're operationally independent, reporting to Mr. Calin Rovinescu, who's our president and CEO, as well as reporting to our board of directors for safety oversight as well as environmental oversight. The operational independence is quite important because it allows us to view independently across the organization the ongoing effectiveness and management not only of our safety management system, but our environmental management system as well as our occupational health and safety management system.

That role is to test monitor the effectiveness of our SMS through the various reporting procedures and address the safety hazards that the organization faces.

I'll also echo David's comments relative to how we're regarded within the industry on an international level. I have the luxury of sitting on various committees across various associations, both at IATA and the Airlines for America, as an associate member. Our safety management system is regarded as one of the most robust and rigorous performance-based systems out there. In fact, some international theatres don't have a regulatory requirement for SMS, so we're often sought out for our expertise.

Outside my professional life, I chair a hospital board in the city of Toronto. I mention that because over the years, given our expertise associated with the implementation of SMS, we're finding that we're crossing the boundaries and assisting other safety-sensitive sectors with how to apply the principles of safety management systems to benefit their organizations and reduce adverse outcomes. It's quite an exciting period of time because others are benefiting from our knowledge and our experience, and they are coming to us for that.

To David's point, our interactions with the inspectors within Transport Canada have evolved. I don't want to say on a regular basis, but quite often during the quarter, it is not uncommon for us to invite inspectors to sit in on our management review process which is quite rigorous. It goes through many layers. They have sat in on our corporate safety board where we report to our CEO. They're invited to participate in those meetings as we look to discover our hazards and report to our management team on our risks and our safety profile.

I will leave my comments at that, and we'll appreciate any questions you might have that are associated with our experience.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you, Mr. Elfassy.

Mr. Wilson, please speak briefly.

[Captain Scott Wilson, Vice President, Safety, Security and Quality, WestJet, National Airlines Council of Canada]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the committee for welcoming us here today. It's a great honour and privilege to be able to share our experiences on the implementation of safety management systems here in Canada.

I'll give you a bit of background on myself. I've been 13 years with WestJet and a little over 20 years in the industry, primarily in flight operational roles, prior to taking on this role in the safety, security, and quality side for the past three years.

From a WestJet perspective and a greater NACC perspective—I won't touch on some of the technical details that David and Sam have quite eloquently put—I'll talk a little bit about the culture side.

Obviously, coming from a culturally enabled organization such as WestJet, the big differentiator that we have found with safety management systems is how it takes that cultural envelope and leverages that across the system. We may have safety in our names or titles here, representing the four airlines, but the reality is that for the 43,000 front-line employees, they are the front face of safety every day in our airlines. The safety management system is to enable their voice and their opportunity to be a very enabled and active piece of safety within the airline system operating across Canada every day.

With that, I will close. We look forward to the discussion. Thank you for the opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thanks, Captain Wilson.

Captain Mignault.

[Captain Jacques Mignault, Senior Director, Safety, Quality and Security, Air Transat , National Airlines Council of Canada]

Mr. Chair and members, I would like to tell you a bit about myself.

I have worked for Air Transat for 16 years now after spending over 20 years in air operations with the Canadian Forces. For six years, I have been the manager responsible for implementing the air operations safety management system at Air Transat. I am essentially responsible for looking into all of the airline's sectors of activity, including flight safety, cabin operations, aircraft maintenance safety and all ground handling services. In short, everything related to air operations.

I would like to emphasize the comments that my colleagues have already made that the safety management system, or SMS, enables us to involve all of our company's employees in the common objective of providing safe operations. The SMS also provides us with an opportunity to create partnerships with all industry stakeholders. Whether they are air traffic controllers or airport managers, we work together to find the causes of incidents to establish the best corrective measures possible and prevent the incidents from happening again.

I personally think that the system is an opportunity to go much deeper into incident management and the safety of our operations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

We'll now go to questioning.

Mr. Mai, you have seven minutes.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today. I would also like to thank them for their presentations.

To begin, I have a general comment for the witnesses.

In April 2014, a survey of aviation inspectors about safety management systems, indicated that 85% of inspectors believed that air travellers had been exposed to a higher risk because of SMSs. It was an increase compared to the 2007 survey, which indicated that 67% of inspectors predicted that safety was lower.

You are saying that the SMS is a good system for the industry. However, what is your reaction to what the inspectors themselves think of safety? My question is for any of you.

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

We are quite familiar with this survey. To be honest, the results are very difficult to understand.

As Mr. Deveau explained, as far as we're concerned, an internationally recognized safety management system that has proven itself has been put in place. The system must study the cause of a failure, but we must also take a step back. We have to examine the system as a whole to remedy the cause of an incident and determine whether it contributed to it.

In addition, the survey seems to indicate that there are fewer inspections. Once again, we have difficulty understanding where that is coming from. Not only is the level of oversight the same—and probably even better—but there is a dialogue and communication between the airline and the inspector.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

What worries me is that the survey was done with inspectors, the people who are on the ground and look at the aircraft. However, you are saying you don't understand the results of the report.

In 2014, how many air transport inspectors are there in total?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

Unfortunately, I can't answer that question. Perhaps it should be put to the people at Transport Canada.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

The figures I have are the following: there were 382 inspectors in 2014, while there were 535 in 1993.

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the figures, but what I can tell you is that an SMS makes better oversight possible. The members of my organization can confirm that.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

That's also what we were told when our committee did a study of rail transport. We were told that the system in place was very good and that the companies were quite satisfied with it. The Auditor General looked into it and said that Transport Canada did not even have the time to audit the SMSs.

CN representatives appeared before the committee and told us that they could send the committee an example of a safety management system. Would you be able to send us one so that we can see what is done? Safety management systems are sent to Transport Canada for study, but in reality, the department doesn't have sufficient resources to determine whether all the systems in place are safe.

Could you send the committee an example of a safety management system?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

I can't make that decision right now. I will have to consult the members of my organization.

Internal transparency is very important. Employees need to be familiar with the safety management system.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I'll make another parallel with rail transport.

Railway employees said that they were not involved in the SMSs. Some of them said they were on a committee, but specified that they did not have much influence. Others said they were not consulted at all. Mr. Mignault said that some consultations were held with people from Air Transat.

In practice, how is a safety management system put in place with the employees?

[Marc-André O'Rourke]

I'll ask my members, but just generally,

…one of the advantages of an SMS is that all levels of the organization are involved.

I will let someone with more experience answer your question.

Could someone speak about the engagement?

[Capt Jacques Mignault]

As for employee involvement, there is a voluntary reporting program that encourages employees to inform us of incidents that occur during operations. The program is confidential, which ensures that no disciplinary action is taken against the employee after a report is made.

There is nothing preventing employees from informing us about an incident. The purpose of the program is to obtain information in order to take appropriate action and have all employees benefit. We work with employee associations, which are program partners. To me, this program provides greater visibility for incidents.

I would like to come back to your question or your comment about Transport Canada's oversight activities. Based on my experience, Transport Canada's oversight through this system is different than it was in the past. However, in my opinion, it is much more in depth. Instead of only focusing on an incident to determine how the carrier will fix the situation, it evaluates how the system as a whole can establish the root causes and appropriate measures and verify them to ensure that they are adequate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Sorry, but you're out of time, Mr. Hai.

Mr. McGuinty, for seven minutes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, gentlemen. Thanks for being here.

Let me ask you, first of all, in the system we now have, this SMS, would you agree that in order for the SMS to be thorough and safe and reliable...? We're talking here about reliability. We're talking about brand. We're talking about market share. We're talking about operating your businesses, generating wealth and value. Would you agree that for the SMS to be fully functioning that we need in partnership with the SMS activities undertaken by your member companies proper enforcement, regulation, inspection, and audit?

[Capt Scott Wilson]

I do agree very much, wholeheartedly.

I will talk to the enforcement piece a little bit though. What we want to ensure is, as Jacques mentioned, for our front-line employees to feel very comfortable about being part of the system, about being encouraged and enabled, they need to have that non-punitive aspect.

The enforcement piece is there as much as it ever was, but basically it's when it sees the layers that failed up to that point, and that would be the proper piece for it. We very much as member airlines point to the fact that our success of safety management systems in Canada has been very much due to the strong partnership, cooperation, and value that's provided every day by our inspector group which we have very close working relationships with.