Transport Committee on March 24th, 2015

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Hi, Ms. Bateman. Thanks for joining us.

I want to commend you on your work and on the bill. It's a positive step forward and I think Canadians will appreciate it. In my own city of Ottawa we suffered a terrible tragedy some time ago when an OC Transpo bus was hit by a train at a level crossing. People lost their lives and many people are still recovering and families are still traumatized. I think if this goes some distance in preventing this kind of accident in the future, it would be very positive.

Following up on my colleague's line of questioning, which I was going to take as well, there appears to be some duplication here between your bill and the government's Bill C-52.

Maybe just to cut right to it, are you prepared to have your bill amended so that it's actually integrable with the government's measures or “fungible” as we would say?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I am here in the interests of the safety of Canadians. Of course my motivation is the safety of people in my riding as I'm sure is the case for every one of us on any side of this House of Commons. That's our motivation, so absolutely I will be flexible and I will be guided by the chair and the parliamentary secretary in that. To be rigid on something like this makes no sense. If we can work together to make a difference and to actually accomplish greater rail safety for families, for elderly people, and for people driving cars across the multiple rail crossings, that would be wonderful. I look forward to working with you on that.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

The second question I want to ask is about the fact that of level railway crossings in Canada today—my understanding is that there are 5,606 of those across the country—only one-third are equipped with warning devices.

When you were doing your research, did you consider being more prescriptive in your bill, not simply imbuing inspectors with the power to take action but talking about the two-thirds of level crossings that don't have those warning devices in place?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

The warning device mechanism was in place at the crossing in my riding and it was the motivation for my bill.

I didn't want to be prescriptive about a piece of machinery that clearly didn't work in the interest of the safety of people, so I did not pursue that at all. For example, if the rail area has been improperly maintained, or a family drives across and a little bicycle gets caught in it, I want inspectors to be able to say, “That's not safe and we have to fix that.” I want it to have teeth, which apparently at present is not the case.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

For my third question, when you were doing your research on this, did you backcast, in the sense of asking questions about the sufficiency of inspectors? It's one thing to empower inspectors to take specific action; it's another question as to whether or not we have enough inspectors in place to actually use the new power that you want to confer upon them. Would you agree?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

“Backcast”, I've learned a new word today. That's good.

My focus was on the safety. When I was asking the questions and doing the research, my understanding was that while we have inspectors, they don't have the power to actually say, “This crossing in Mr. McGuinty's riding is unsafe. We're going to close it until repairs have been made.” That was my lens that I looked through.

I welcome any additions and amplifications that you would make to this private member's bill. It's always better when you work in partnership.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Okay.

I have no other specific questions, unless you want to add something else in terms of your bill.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

No, that's fine.

I very much appreciate your support and very much appreciate that we're working together for the safety of Canadians. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

We'll now move to Ms. Young, for seven minutes.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Ms. Bateman, I want to say thank you so much for being here today and for presenting your bill to this committee.

As you noted in your opening comments, it was the tragic accident at Lac-Mégantic that has moved this Minister of Transport, the government, and this committee to study the safety of rail safety across Canada. I know we have all been working very hard to this end.

It's wonderful to have you here presenting your private member's bill, Bill C-627, another aspect to making our railway system even more safe. I'm very impressed that you've undertaken to do this.

I want to note some important facts and figures. It's noted here that of the 23,000 grade crossings under federal jurisdiction, 18% of all rail accidents in Canada are at grade crossings. That's a substantive number; 18% is almost one-fifth of all accidents at grade crossings. Again, I think your bill is very timely. It obviously speaks to the point and that is safety for Canadians and for rail.

In your consideration of this bill, which I think is quite comprehensive, you talk about railway safety, safety of persons, and the safety of property. There are obviously some gaps in previous legislation, which is why you proposed your bill.

Can you speak to why you felt you wanted to separate out those three aspects and why your bill will fix the gaps?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Well, I vividly recall the discussion we had in July with personnel from the Minister of Transport's staff and also staff from the House of Commons.

With respect to the House of Commons staff, I came forward basically saying that this is about safety. This is about making sure that people not only in my riding but in every riding are just a little bit safer. I was incredulous when I found out that the minister did not have the authority to shut an unsafe crossing.

We were guided on the inclusion of the persons and property piece by the House of Commons lawyer. Again, I speak as a chartered accountant, not a lawyer. We were guided and we were told that this was essential for the nature of the bill and what I was trying to achieve. First of all, I checked with the Minister of Transport's staff. They said that it was a great idea and would be helpful, but it was the House of Commons lawyer who actually guided us on that solution.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Are you saying that what you discovered in your research was that even if a railway crossing was unsafe and people knew it was unsafe, as in the case you've mentioned in your own home riding, the Minister of Transport would have no jurisdiction or no power to shut that down?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Exactly. Not only did the Minister of Transport have no authority to shut down an unsafe crossing in any of the 308 ridings that exist right now, but further, neither did her huge team of railway safety inspectors. I thought we needed teeth in that—

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

When you considered your bill, then, was it shocking to you as a member of Parliament that there was this gap in railway safety?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Absolutely, and not only to me but to many of my constituents. We have one area in my riding.... It's actually funny because I worked so hard. There is a crossing—I think there are 40 trains a day—right in the heart of my riding. It cuts through my riding. Forty trains a day.... People whose families live on one side invariably are signed up to hockey on the other one, so it's a source of enormous frustration.

I've been working incredibly hard to make sure that we somehow can work with all levels of government to have an underpass at that crossing to make sure that not only are the problems repaired but that it goes under.... When you find out that an accident could happen and the minister has no power to shut it...yes, I was incredulous. This was my motivation for this bill, because that one crossing in my riding is such a source of frustration. People are always complaining about the number of trains, and counting them, and saying, “I was waiting for nineteen and a half minutes today.” It didn't take much from my riding to find out that this was a priority. In fact, we had a lot of feedback.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

I know that in Vancouver the minister was there just a few months ago announcing the opening of a new overpass to allow the trains and the people to pass safely. I completely understand what you mean about safety for people, for rail, and for property as well. Also, obviously, the minister is working very hard to ensure that these crossings are safer across Canada.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Absolutely, and all things being equal, if you're going to make investments in infrastructure and you get an investment in infrastructure that also increases people's safety, it's great. I'm glad you got that.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

I notice in your bill certain aspects that I also wanted to quickly ask you about.

By presenting this bill, you have directly established enforceable safety standards for crossings. You are clarifying the respective roles and responsibilities of railway companies and other parties and are promoting collaboration between railway companies and road authorities. Again, I think the public, certainly in our communities....

I was very surprised, in reading your bill, to find that this doesn't currently exist. Can you speak to this?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Absolutely, with great pleasure. I was equally surprised when I found that didn't exist. The language you refer to.... Standards are an integral and important part of absolutely anything. We have service standards. We have accountability standards. We have all kinds of standards and for that to be integrated was critical. Roles and responsibilities are very important in a collaboration. Municipalities own property going up to the railway and then it's the railway line that owns the actual part. You have to collaborate and you have to determine exactly the roles and responsibilities of the respective parties.

For example we had one crossing that was repaired recently and it was a huge negotiation project between the municipality and the rail company. It was a successful negotiation, I might add. Yes, all those things matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Sorry, your time has expired.

We now move to Mr. Yurdiga for seven minutes.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ms. Bateman.

Bill C-627 is so important, especially around municipalities where we have children playing and using the crossing to go back and forth to school or home, or wherever it may be.

What kind of feedback did you get from municipalities regarding your bill?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I've had very positive.... I don't know of any municipal official, as I don't know of any federal official, who would be against safety for families living in their communities. I spoke to the various councillors and further to the comments I made earlier to Ms. Young these things are organic. They grow because of the comments from people in your community. We always work together at various levels of government and certainly the municipal councillors in the area, two of them, are supportive of this and we've had numerous discussions about the crossings.

The City of Winnipeg today declared a crossing in my riding as their number one priority for infrastructure with the Building Canada fund. I'm pretty thrilled about that, but you're absolutely right, Mr. Yurdiga. These things grow through conversations not only with constituents but with other members. The municipalities have been incredibly supportive, as have the councillors.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Yes, and you know the municipalities also own some of these crossings or are responsible for them. When does CN take responsibility? When does the municipality take responsibility for upgrades if needed? Is there a definitive line where one outweighs the other?

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

That's a really interesting question and it was part of the reason that this became my private member's bill.

We got a lot of calls about one crossing. For that one crossing there was a rail company involved and—this is to your comments earlier about the collaboration with the city councillors—my goodness, the city councillors' lines were lighting up, my lines were lighting up, and there were real problems on the maintenance at one crossing. Obviously you're working in partnership once your realize it's a problem. We started making calls to the company and that's when we found out how complicated it was. My staff were absolutely incredible, the way they were trying to get help for people in the community who had identified a security weakness in their community. We found that it was a process.

Eventually we were able to succeed and get some remediation, not 100% remediation, I might add, but a little bit of remediation in the area. That opened my eyes to how cumbersome it was and I was amazed that the Minister of Transport had no authority over this ability to shut down something that a vast number of people in the community had identified as a serious security issue for personal safety.

[David Yurdiga, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Yes, and I understand we do have a federal program where they contribute up to 50% for eligible costs.

Are there any reports that determine how many crossings are a risk to public safety? Has there been a study or is there going to be a study done on all the crossings that are risky?