Evidence of meeting #52 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fund.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Shawn Tupper  Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport
Laureen Kinney  Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Michael Bourque  President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
James Beardsley  Chairman, Global Rail Practice, Marsh and McLennan Companies, Railway Association of Canada
Lois Gardiner  Senior Vice-President, Risk Consulting, Western Canada, Aon Global Risk Consulting, Railway Association of Canada
Robert Taylor  Assistant Vice-President, North American Advocacy, Canadian Pacific Railway, Railway Association of Canada
Terry Berthiaume  President and Chief Executive Officer, Essex Terminal Railway Company, Railway Association of Canada
Phil Benson  Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada
Jean Patenaude  Assistant General Counsel, Canadian National Railway Company, Railway Association of Canada

4 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Halton, ON

Again, this is one of the concerns that has been raised by industry and by insurers, and I appreciate the opportunity at the committee to discuss and clarify what the position is.

What I can tell the committee is that this is standard language that is in line with the modernized liability and compensation regime that has been put forward on pipelines in Bill C-46, as well as the regime for offshore oil and gas in Bill C-22, which received royal assent on February 26, 2015. The purpose of the provision is to ensure that the strengthened regime for rail would not preclude any other regime, including future regimes that set higher limits of liability, from being applied to a railway accident. That's a clarification that was sought by industry, and I'm pleased to be able to address it today.

4 p.m.

Conservative

David Yurdiga Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you.

Minister, could you please describe the consultation process your department undertook to ensure stakeholder feedback was considered in the drafting of this bill? What did you hear from the stakeholders?

4 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Halton, ON

We started this process in the Speech from the Throne, and we've always made it very well known that we were going to be going down this road. It has been a lengthy process, and there has been a significant amount of consultation, so perhaps the people who did the consultation would like to answer this.

I don't know if you'd like to answer it, Mr. Tupper, or if you would like Ms. Kinney to answer the question—whatever you like.

4 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport

Shawn Tupper

I'm happy to answer. I think it was a fairly straightforward process. We had public meetings with stakeholders and interested parties, and we received written submissions as well.

Fundamentally, I think we had a reasonably good response in the consultations. Most of the questions and concerns that were raised were points of clarification, and just as the minister has responded, it's that ability to make sure people understood the details. By and large, it was fairly straightforward, and it was fairly widespread.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Yurdiga Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you.

How much time do I have left?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

You have a little over three minutes.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Yurdiga Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you.

Minister, could you please elaborate on how the fund for railway accidents involving dangerous goods will be financed?

April 23rd, 2015 / 4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Halton, ON

Sure. As we indicated, the objective of our reviewing of the liability and compensation regime first was to make sure that we have “polluter pay”. That's where we started with this whole piece. We also wanted to make sure that there would be adequate resources available for potential victims or for cleanup costs to make sure that taxpayers were going to be protected in the event of an accident.

But we had to make sure that it was a fair sharing; it's not just railways that are involved. Shippers are to be involved as well. That's how we ended up coming up with the bill that's before you and the insurance requirements.

On the first side, with respect to the railways, it was to determine the appropriate level of insurance, because what happened in the case of Lac-Mégantic was that there was only $25 million available, and to review what are the appropriate levels of insurance, which was done. Second was to take a look from the other side as well, at a second source of compensation, which would be this fund for railway accidents involving designated goods. We determined to start this with crude for various reasons, including the fact that it is an increasing source, but the initial focus is not just for that. It's because we know exactly what happened in the Lac-Mégantic derailment and we saw what costs were associated with it. As crude is not the only product that could cause damage in the case of a rail accident, it is left open, and there is flexibility there to provide, by regulation, other dangerous goods in the future.

The administration would require establishment of a body, but we've been doing that already, as I've said, in the shipper finance fund, the ship-source oil pollution fund under the Marine Liability Act, and there are a lot of similarities. We've mirrored those responsibilities with regard to both fund management and accountability.

We're going to start with crude oil. Railways are going to be required to pay compensation to the limit of their insurance level without the need to prove fault or negligence. We are also making sure that we take into consideration the things that are beyond their ability. I've listed those already previously in answer to a question. As well, regulatory authority is there to include things other than crude oil with respect to the railway. To make sure there's continuity, damages covered by the fund would mirror those for which railways would be held liable, for all loss or damage.

We've indicated how we would go ahead and capitalize the fund. We figured that the best way to do that would be a per tonne levy. It was, as Mr. Tupper pointed out, a straightforward exercise in determining what that level of levy would be. We said that the shippers would be required to pay the levy to the railways and then the railways would remit it to the government for a deposit in a special account as part of the CRF. As we've gone through already, the fund will be the payer of last resort, because most accidents will be covered by those mandatory insurance levels. There will be a few.... God willing, we won't have any accidents, but there may be a few that would end up tapping into the fund. If that fund is depleted by that accident, then the CRF would be called upon as a backstop.

That's basically a longer version of what I said in the speech and how I've answered with respect to these questions in the past. We want to make sure that the fund is transparent in its management, so the administrator would report on the management of the fund to Parliament through the Minister of Transport. There would be provision for a special examination of the fund at least once every five years as well.

That's it in a nutshell.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Thanks very much, Minister.

We'll now move to you, Mr. Sullivan, for five minutes. I understand you'll be sharing your time with Mr. Kellway. The floor is yours.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, you've suggested that this bill will prevent accidents. I put it to you that I don't think the insurance portion will prevent accidents. Certainly, it may cause railroads that are—

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Halton, ON

I think we may both agree on that one.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Okay.

In terms of preventing accidents, though, the recent collisions in Gogama and the U.S. have indicated that the CPC-1232 railcars are not safe, in that they don't contain the oil when they're involved in a collision at a speed that is lower than the speed that you have set as the threshold for speeds in cities.

There are two things. I know that the transportation of dangerous goods division had a working group on containment. Have they come up with a speed that is safe for the 1232s through urban areas? What is that speed?

Also, CN has admitted there will always be accidents. They thanked us for inviting them and were quite helpful, but they have said there will always be accidents. We can't have zero accidents. That's what they're saying. What we need to do is make sure the stuff is contained and doesn't blow up. If the 1232s aren't safe at 40 miles an hour, what speed are they safe at?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Watson.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

On a point of order, Chair, I appreciate the desire to have a general discussion on a range of topics, but we're talking about the regulatory framework itself here, the Railway Safety Act and the Canada Transportation Act specifically, and the government's proposed changes to that. We'll be doing clause-by-clause on that, and I would certainly hope....

Maybe the member is signalling that he likes everything in the bill and doesn't want to make any changes to it, but I at least would expect the topics to be related to the legislative framework. We can always ask the minister to come back to have a general discussion about containment or rail speeds or any of a number of items.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

I assume that my time is continuing.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

We paused, yes.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

With respect, the minister herself was the one who said that Lac-Mégantic was an extremely rare occurrence. The minister herself said that this bill is to prevent accidents. I'm asking about containment, which is how Lac-Mégantic happened: it wasn't contained in an accident. So I was talking about the bill.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Halton, ON

Actually, I can help you on this.

I'll answer the question; I appreciation the intervention of my colleague while I clarified my information.

I can tell the committee that the risk assessments process is not completed. We did receive them, but in the meantime we are not accepting the rules that have been proposed. As such, later on today I will be issuing another emergency directive. It has to do with speed. It is as follows: 40 miles per hour in localities where the census population is greater than 100,000.

That will be done later today.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Wasn't that already the case? I thought it was already 40.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Halton, ON

It was 50.

Laureen will help you on that.

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Laureen Kinney

If I can clarify, there was a reduction of speed to 50 for all key trains with 20 or more cars of dangerous goods. That was issued last year. That also required the risk assessments to be done, and that where there were higher-risk areas, they would need to look at, for crude oil, etc., a speed of 40 miles an hour. But it wasn't a consistent requirement in all urban areas. There were about 28 risk factors that were looked at.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Thank you.

Go ahead.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Larry Miller

Mr. Kellway.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Kellway NDP Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Through you, thank you to the minister for being here today.

You mentioned a formula, or Mr. Tupper did, for the determination of the fund. It was essentially volume now, plus forecast, to get you to the $250 million in five years. I was wondering if you could please fill me in on what that volume is now and what the forecasted volume is. What's the math there?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Department of Transport

Shawn Tupper

I don't have the specific math with me; it's grand to call it an equation. Essentially, our objective was to capitalize the fund. We set a notional target for capitalizing that fund. We tried to have a good understanding of what the volumes were that were currently on the rail. Basically, it was simple math—how much is going over five years, and straight division.

I can get you those numbers if you want the specifics.