Transport Committee on April 28th, 2015

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you for the update on the proximity guidelines. I think it was in the context of a discussion on the proximity guidelines that you suggested you didn't want a one-size-fits-all approach. Is that correct? And why is that important?

I would certainly agree with you, but tell me why not having a one-size-fits-all approach across the country with respect to proximity guidelines is important.

[Jenelle Saskiw]

Again, we just have so many issues. We're such a geographically diverse country. There are a lot of factors that we have to consider. We're dealing with a lot of remote areas; we're dealing with highly densely populated areas. There are so many factors. A concern of mine is even communication levels.

When we have some derailments in rural parts of the country, we may not even have the means to be able to communicate exactly what was on those trains with our first responders. That's a concern as well. I'm happy that it was addressed in the budget, that they will be looking at the broadband issues. Like I said, this is the reality of it. We don't have sufficient resources to just rubber-stamp it and say this is exactly what we're going to be dealing with. There are so many factors that we have to consider.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

With the new liability insurance requirements, the compensation fund, and the powers in the bill that the minister will now have, do you feel that communities will be in a better position, that they'll be better protected, and that there'll be more safeguards? Do you feel that?

[Jenelle Saskiw]

It's a starting point. Again, we have to start someplace.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Will you be better off with C-52?

[Jenelle Saskiw]

Yes, I think that we will be.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to take a step back. The minister and the FCM struck an agreement a year or so ago with respect to the exchange of information relating to the transportation of dangerous goods, specifically for first responders.

Chief Boissonneault, are you pleased with that new arrangement? Is it working for you? Are you getting the information that you need as a first responder?

[Paul Boissonneault]

Yes.

That information exchange is one area that we were very, very pleased with. There are still some questions from some municipalities about the real-time information. The stance that we've always taken is that the information is a necessity for emergency planning so that we know what is coming through our municipality and we can prepare appropriately for that. If we knew that a train was coming in at noon specifically, we're not going to go park fire trucks or any other responding apparatus at crossing guards because we know that's coming through. The real-time information is not as important as it is for the emergency planning aspect. Certainly that is probably the most important piece that we've had.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I think part of the new arrangement or communications protocol also recognizes that this information can't get into the wrong hands. That's why it goes to you—to first responders only—and that information can be safeguarded.

Do you agree with the importance of that?

[Paul Boissonneault]

Absolutely.

Obviously some specific security-based challenges have to be dealt with. Responders and defined emergency planners through the CAO of a municipality are certainly the right people to have that important documentation in place to ensure that the preparedness levels of their community meet or exceed the expectations of its residents.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

So some significant progress has been made in this area?

[Paul Boissonneault]

Very much so, on the information sharing.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Excellent.

Thank you for your comments, your suggestions, and your proposal with respect to supporting specialized training.

I have a question or two on that. I presume that, again with a country as large as Canada with varying sizes of municipalities, some first responders in certain municipalities are better positioned than others to deal with these sorts of very difficult incidents.

Are there any best practice situations that we can turn to out there? Are any specific municipalities or first responders particularly well positioned or better trained?

[Paul Boissonneault]

There are certainly many examples.

I think what our association can provide as an example for a best practice is that we worked very closely with the Canadian Fertilizer Institute to develop an online training program specific to anhydrous ammonia.

We're not saying that crude oil is the only flammable liquid that requires additional training, but the way that the crude burned in Lac-Mégantic was by definition not how we thought it would. Through the fractioning process and then the shipping requirements, it burned hotter, with more volatility, and certainly in a more explosive way than what a fire chief—and I'm speaking on my behalf—would assume would come out of a tank car in the event of a derailment.

I think those kinds of best practice approaches are what we're talking about with an awareness level training program. Getting it to the grassroots level for as many fire departments—and we represent 35,000 through our association—is a starting point. It's certainly not the finish line, but at least it will give some very valuable information specifically in regard to the class 3 flammable liquid.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Sorry, Mr. Braid, but you're out of time.

We have time for one more question here, Mr. Kellway.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming today.

I wanted to make a point on the issue of the 200,000 barrels per day from CAPP producers. I understand that's just CAPP, and we asked the minister the other day how many barrels per day go by rail and I understand that that information is to be coming to the committee later. I just wanted to put the 200,000 in context, because the Estimates out there are much larger, in fact quintuple that number.

We had a letter not long ago from Mayor John Tory of Toronto and 17 councillors whose constituents back onto the CP Rail line going through Toronto. They are concerned about the safety of their constituents and proposing safety initiatives that could be undertaken by the government, but which haven't been undertaken yet. We've had the chance to talk about what would happen and how resourced small towns are in terms of the ability of volunteer firefighters to respond to an accident.

I'm wondering if FCM has put their mind to what it would look like in a very dense population like Toronto, Vancouver, or wherever we have an incident similar to Lac- Mégantic and whether you consider that your firefighters and first responders have the resources that will allow them to protect public safety and their own lives in such a scenario.

[Daniel Rubinstein]

Just very briefly, the situation in an urban area in terms of thinking about the municipal role is not that different from a rural area. Certainly municipal fire services in big cities have some capacity internally to train to a higher level than in a small town, but when you're talking about a large volume flammable liquid incident, the fact remains that municipalities are not mandated to deal with an issue of that scope. This is why we called for emergency response assistance plans for these products that bring in specialized assistance to any municipality regardless of their size to help in the event of an incident.

It's important to keep in mind the difference between training and the actual specialized response. All of our members need that assistance, and that's what the ERAP regulations and program help to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. Komarnicki, you have the last question. Please use your time wisely.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

With respect to smaller communities, are you satisfied with the legislation around getting paid for the costs of either firefighting or remedial work that has to be done? Is that something that you feel is appropriate in the bill? What are your thoughts about that? Have your members been experiencing any difficulties whatsoever in collecting payment?

You can both take it.

[Paul Boissonneault]

We are very satisfied that the liability falls on the polluter pays principle to ensure that the cost burden is not associated with the municipalities or specifically with the fire service budget for an incident of that nature. We feel that the bill does address that, very much so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

You have 15 seconds, if you want to comment.

[Jenelle Saskiw]

I have to agree. We're happy that it's not being downloaded onto the backs of the municipalities. So we are very happy, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Okay. Thank you very much.

We're going to have to break for the next half of our meeting, but thank you to all of you for being here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

We will call our meeting back to order.

Ms. Barker, Ms. Frid, and Mr. Ballantyne, thanks for joining us in the room.

To Ms. Lai, thank you for joining us by video conference.

Can you hear me okay?

[Patricia Lai, Co-founder, Safe Rail Communities]

Yes, I can. Thank you.