Transport Committee on Dec. 18th, 2013

[Daniel Kelly]

For one thing, we do believe that far more needs to happen on the cost-reduction side than on the price-increase side. I have to tell you that while I know Canada Post is in a bind, our prediction is that this is going to hasten people's leaving Canada Post. Instead of leaving in dribs and drabs as they have over the last number of years, small businesses will be fleeing Canada Post's services as a result of this.

This is classic monopolistic behaviour—price hikes and service declines. At the same time it's interesting to me that the pieces of Canada Post's business that are in the competitive marketplace are not jacking up prices or cutting services for package delivery and for ad mail, while they are doing so on the monopoly itself. The whole theory of why they need the monopoly is that it is to help subsidize some of the other aspects, the money-losing aspects of Canada Post's business. This leads me to think that the monopoly may not be appropriate any longer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

Ms. Gallant, go ahead for seven minutes. I understand you're splitting your time.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I'm splitting my time with Mr. Toet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I do wish to address one comment that Mr. McGuinty made. He said that he can't complain about the funds going to advertising on the Canada action plan, but I would like to stipulate that the funds the Canadian government is spending on advertising are actually going into advertising, unlike the case in the sponsorship scandal where the $40 million went missing.

We are here to talk about Canadians with disabilities.

Mr. Brown, I want to thank you very much for taking the time to come. You represent a group of Canadians who potentially will feel the impact of the changes that are going to be implemented. At present two-thirds of Canadians have community mailboxes. So how have Canadians living with disabilities adapted to these changes in the past? Do you have any thoughts on the way that Canada Post could mitigate the impacts of the changes that are forthcoming?

[Bob Brown]

Unless you have somebody living with you or family friends or whatever, most people have difficulty or can't use the community mailboxes as they are now due to inclement weather, due to the ergonomics of the boxes, due to the difficulties with getting to them, or due to fatigue. So unless people have somebody they can rely on, they actually tend to move away, back into the cities, to receive those services away from the mailboxes.

[Roy Hanes]

I agree.

One of the things that we're also concerned about, besides the mailboxes, is the rising costs. That would be one thing. We're really trying to ask is that if there are going to be shifts, how are they going to be implemented? Even if there's going to be something for, as you mentioned, one-third of the persons with disabilities, that still leaves close to a million people who will have to shift in some way. That's a pretty big population. That is people with disabilities themselves. When you look at the population of people with disabilities, even though it represents close to 14% of the population, when you include family members, and so on, it's actually much larger. Systemically, there could be more difficulties. If there are some changes around those lines, and if they are going to be systemically with the cost going up, then how will that affect people with disabilities?

Even if they can get to a mailbox, if they can't afford to mail something what's the sense of putting something in the mail? The price could be one factor. We hear you. We're saying that if there's some type of plan then it's with some discussion. One of the things that we're proposing or looking at is, if there's going to be less, is there a way of doing that to ensure that people with disabilities living on their own can still get some type of mail delivery?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

In other parts of the country where we haven't had door-to-door delivery they have adapted. If there are any recommendations that you have for these changes coming forth, please let us know what they are so we can forward them to Canada Post. Or, you can send them to Canada Post directly.

Thank you.

[Bob Brown]

As I say, unless people have a family...and that makes them reliant on someone else, which creates problems. We'd like to be self-sufficient and independent. It does not foster that kind of environment.

I would also suggest because of the baby boomers retiring, as was previously said, this problem is going to be more prevalent in the near future. Not everybody has family or friends here. They're shut in to begin with; they just can't get out.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you.

I'll follow up on that for a minute with Mr. Hanes and Mr. Brown.

We are all very sympathetic to the issues that you face and that this will have an impact on people with disabilities probably to a greater degree than anybody else. I would encourage you, as Ms. Gallant has said, that this is your opportunity to have some input with suggested recommendations. Is the status quo the only way we can go forward or are there some things you would bring forward? “Here are some solid ideas from our side that we'd love to see looked at, as we go into this implementation process.”

[Bob Brown]

It doesn't necessarily have to be every day door-to-door service. It could be a couple of days a week, two or three days a week, something like that. We would encourage something like that.

[Roy Hanes]

One of the things I really appreciate is the invitation to participate. There's a saying that we've often been using in the disability community, “Nothing about us, without us”. This is an invitation for us to become involved. Perhaps getting together with our executive would be good. If you could give us who we're supposed to be in touch with, etc., we'll certainly provide the feedback from a disability perspective and what this means for Canadians with disabilities.

I thank you for that invitation.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Are there a few minutes left, Mr. Chair?

I have a quick question for Mr. Kelly. I wanted to go to some of the data that you shared with us. Did you share any of that data at all with Canada Post?

[Daniel Kelly]

This most recent data, no, because we actually hadn't even closed the survey. We hastily did that after the announcement came out. We have done several surveys on Canada Post issues over the past and have shared those results but had not shared this data with Canada Post because it was still in the field.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Okay.

Would you normally be sharing all the data, especially on Canada Post issues? I'm a former CFIB member and I would have been quite disappointed to find out when I was doing your surveys that you were not sharing them with the groups in regards to their services.

[Daniel Kelly]

We always do.

The survey had been out in September and October of this year. The plan was to put together a report, present it to Canada Post, and present it to members of Parliament but we didn't have time to do that.

[Lawrence Toet, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Will you still be forwarding that information to Canada Post, though?

[Daniel Kelly]

Absolutely, yes. The thinking is that we'll still publish the results at some stage, although the wind has been taken a bit out of the sails of the survey given that Canada Post has announced its plans.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Thank you.

The last round goes to Mr. Albrecht who, I understand, is splitting his time with Mr. O'Connor.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's pretty obvious, Mr. Chair, with the declining mail volumes and the increased financial pressures, that something has to happen. The Conference Board spoke earlier to the need to address it. They came out with some ideas. Canada Post went beyond that and did some extensive consultation, and the consultations were quite widely available. Whether or not Canadians took full advantage of them is perhaps open to question.

I'd just like to ask Mr. Kelly something. I'm also a former CFIB member, and I would welcome that report, by the way, of the survey results. At one point we were filling in those surveys. Now, as members of Parliament, we're recipients of them all, so thank you.

On the question of the cost of the mail, obviously through this whole time we're talking about going from 63¢ up to $1, but that $1 is based on the price of one stamp. If the stamps are bought in quantity, I think it's 85¢, and if it's at a business meter, it's 75¢. Could you just tell me what the increase is at the business meter level? Because I think that's more indicative of what the cost would be to that small business owner who's mailing 20,000 pieces of mail.

[Daniel Kelly]

For the metered cost, the cost increase is less significant. I don't have the full sheet in front of me with the rate hikes by category, but it will be less significant. Many businesses in that category that send 50 or more pieces of letter mail per month wouldn't have a business meter. The meters actually cost a lot, so unless they are huge volume users, many companies in the SME community have moved away from metering services. If they do rely heavily on the mail, if they are sending that 20,000 or several thousand pieces, then, yes, they will go to a meter and they will have a price break, but there will still be much more than a 5% increase in their costs, and that can be material.

We at CFIB—you talked about the survey a second ago—send out to our 109,000 members four times a year a paper-based survey to solicit their opinions. While it's still free to send it to you as a member of Parliament, that's going to increase our costs significantly as an advocacy group. We'll probably be able to swallow it, but a lot of charities won't.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

I think my time is up, Mr. Chair. Is it three and a half minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

It's two and a half minutes.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

If I have another half a minute, I'll take it for Mr. Dachis.

I have just a comment on your comment that government ownership does not mean government operation. You talked about gradually moving to contracting and privatization. Could you send us something in terms of what your actual proposal would be and how that would be implemented? I think that would be something I'd love to look into a little more deeply.

[Benjamin Dachis]

Absolutely. It's all in the publication on our website, “How Ottawa Can Deliver a Reformed Canada Post”.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

Mr. O'Connor.