Transport Committee on April 30th, 2018

[Gagan Sikand, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Minister, thank you for being here once again. I'd like to reiterate my thanks from the last time. In Mississauga, your signing of the bilateral agreement and the announcement of $339 million will go very far in helping our public transit. I wanted to thank you again for that announcement.

In that vein, Minister, I was wondering if you could give us a general update on where things stand with the infrastructure program at this point. We're essentially halfway through the term when you think about budget cycles, as you recently said. How do you feel things are going given that we now have two budgets behind us?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

The need to invest in infrastructure arises from the lack of investments, as well as the growing infrastructure deficits that our communities have experienced. In having conversations with our partners, what they told us is, let's design this plan in partnership. Let's sit down and understand where we need to invest and how we need to invest, and then, through that collaboration, come up with a plan.

That's exactly what we have done. It's been two and a half years now and phase one is making a real difference in the lives of Canadians. In phase two, where there are long-term plans through bilateral agreements, trade and transportation, or the Canada Infrastructure Bank, we see an opportunity to undertake projects that will actually transform how people look at their communities. This significant amount of investment will allow them to think big and will give them that certainty. I'm very proud of where we are today, and I'm looking forward to the future and how we can continue to build on this strong foundation that we have laid.

[Gagan Sikand, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

We're equally proud and also look forward to the future.

I am splitting my time with my colleague. Mr. Rogers is going to take over.

[Churence Rogers, Liberal, Bonavista—Burin—Trinity, NL]

Welcome, Minister Sohi and staff. I'm happy to be here today and to get a chance to ask a couple of questions, or at least one question with a couple of parts to it.

I come from a very municipal background as well. I was the mayor of two different towns in Newfoundland and Labrador, very small rural towns, for a 16-year period. I served for four years as president of Municipalities Newfoundland and Labrador. I've travelled the entire province, including the northern portion. I also served for four years as a member of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities. I feel that I know this file very well.

I have a couple a questions here, though. I know that you're aware of the challenge of building infrastructure in the more rural, remote, and northern communities, with a lot of it due to the harsh environmental conditions and the lack of communications technology, such as Internet and self-service, in many of these small towns and areas. On that note, what are you and your department doing to ensure the timely completion of projects in remote, rural, and northern communities, and how are you combatting some of the challenges faced by building in these environments?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

One of the things we heard about from other rural, northern, and remote communities, and the small communities, was their tax base. They have a very limited municipal tax base in order to match the federal share. In the past, they received only 33% of the funding from the federal government. We now will contribute 60% of the funding to communities with a population of fewer than 5,000 people. The province will continue to contribute one third. What this does, then, is it relieves pressure on property taxes for those smaller communities.

There's another thing we have done with the creation of this dedicated $2-billion funding. Now they don't have to compete for funding against big cities or mid-sized cities. They can rely on this funding solely for their own community needs but can still apply for other funding through other funding streams that are available.

On the completion of projects, we let them determine what the construction timeline is going to be. Based on their ask, we have extended, in some cases, the timeline for construction completion. They needed that extra time and we gave them that extra time. We are very flexible in our approach to dealing with all the communities, but particularly smaller communities that may not have that kind of capacity to complete projects on time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Liepert.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, as you know, I represent a riding in Calgary. There's probably no major urban centre in the country that needed...the opportunity for people to get back to work than Calgary did. However, when I look around the city, I'm always troubled by the fact that I have difficulty identifying projects that are now under way, with shovels in the ground and boots getting dirty, as a result of the federal government infrastructure initiative. I know that there's been a commitment to transit down the road, but that's many years down the road.

Can you give me a few examples for my constituents of, to use your words, “making a real difference” in the lives of Calgarians—today?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

One of the reasons you may not see federal visibility on construction sites is that we made a decision not to post those large “economic action plan” signs you would see under the previous government. This is not about advertisement. This is about making an impact on communities.

We have funded a number of projects. One I can share with you is the design work for the green line. We are funding—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Yes, but how many jobs is that creating today in Calgary for a project that's not going to start for another half a dozen years?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

The project is being designed now.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

How many jobs, roughly, would that—

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Without federal support, that project will not proceed ahead. We are investing close to $349 million in public transportation systems throughout the province.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Let's say I'm a hard hat who has been laid off in the energy industry. Can you give me some concrete examples of where those folks are actually working today—shovels in the ground, boots getting dirty—that I can take back to my constituents and say, “Here's your infrastructure federal tax dollars at work”?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Yes. I can tell you that on top of the green line design work, utility relocations are happening in the southeast corridor of that plan, with 17 Avenue Southeast BRT, phase two, undertaken. As well, the Southwest Ring Road project is—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Well, come on, now. The Ring Road and many of these projects you're referencing were already allocated dollars by the previous government. The funding for the Ring Road today is not coming out of your infrastructure dollars. Those were dollars allocated prior to 2015.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

Yes: so that project's under way, creating jobs, and it's being funded by Canadian tax dollars. Whether your government approved it or some other government approved it, we are here to work as Canadians, and that's exactly what we are doing. We are investing in water and waste-water infrastructure throughout the province. The amount of $4 billion has been approved for the province of Alberta for more than 150 projects. The vast majority of those projects are currently under way throughout the province.

Next week I will be visiting one of those projects, in Lacombe—

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Lacombe's not Calgary and you know that, Minister. Can you provide, can your officials provide this committee, or me in particular, with specific projects that are under way in Calgary right now, numbers of people who are actually working on-site at those projects—not projects that were approved and dollars allocated prior to 2015, but since 2016?

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

We will provide you the information that is given to us by other partners, including the status of those projects.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

This will be provided by the clerk and then all the committee members will have it.

Madame Sansoucy.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, I'd like to share something with you and hear your view.

When I was a city councillor, I often used to wonder how it was possible that the pyramids and Roman roads still existed, when our own roads had to be redone every five or 10 years and our overpasses and bridges, like the Champlain Bridge, lasted 30, 40, or 50 years at most.

The lowest bidder with the ability to execute the plans and specifications of the contract does not necessarily guarantee sound and sustainable infrastructure. I'd like to know whether you would consider tying funding to a requirement that municipalities follow a protocol demonstrating the sustainability of infrastructure projects and their resilience to extreme weather conditions and climate change.

Essentially, the point is to spend smarter.

[Amarjeet Sohi, Liberal, Edmonton Mill Woods, AB]

One of the things we are doing by working in partnership with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities is providing resources to municipalities to do their asset management plans. First of all, this helps them understand what assets they own. In addition, it allows them to have a more disciplined approach, where they look at the life-cycle cost of the project, not just the construction cost. With that kind of discipline, they will start reforming their procurement processes. We're very hopeful that this kind of discipline will enable them to look at the entire life of the project, not just the construction component of the project. We don't dictate to them what procurement method they should follow and how they assess their projects, but I'll ask one of my staff members to elaborate on that.

[Marc Fortin, Assistant Deputy Minister, Program Operations, Office of Infrastructure of Canada]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you for the question. The issue you raise is one that affects numerous municipalities. As the minister just said, we have a partnership with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, precisely because this is an issue that comes up every year. Municipalities build new infrastructure, but the cost of maintaining that infrastructure over time has to be taken into account. That's what we are trying to address by working in partnership with municipalities.

Many smaller municipalities simply don't have access to the necessary expertise. Through this program, and by working with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, we want to make that expertise available across municipalities and give them new tools to manage infrastructure projects effectively. Today's new infrastructure projects could become tomorrow's headaches, and so the department is endeavouring to address those concerns in partnership with a number of organizations, as well as municipalities.

I should perhaps add that, in order to properly understand long-term maintenance challenges, it's important to have access to results-based data. Phase two of the new infrastructure program will provide that access. Over the next 10 years, we are going to collect extensive information, and through the bilateral agreements, we have asked the provinces and territories for access to municipalities so that we can collect the data that will foster a longer-term view.

[Brigitte Sansoucy, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I think we're going to have plenty of fodder for the second hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Minister Sohi, for attending today. We appreciated the information. I understand your officials will be staying for the subsequent hour.

As to the departmental officials, let me introduce them officially while the minister slips out. We have Darlene Boileau, the assistant deputy minister; Glenn Campbell, assistant deputy minister, investment, partnerships and innovation; Marc Fortin, assistant deputy minister, program operations; Sean Keenan, director general, strategic and horizontal policy; and Yazmine Laroche, associate deputy minister.

Officially, then, welcome to all of you. Thank you for staying here for another hour for the questions from the members.

Mr. Chong.