Evidence of meeting #104 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
I want to follow up on my questions concerning ELTs. Are you okay with the fact that ELTs work properly only 36% of the time? Is the safety board okay with that?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
First of all, I don't have those statistics. I'm not sure where those statistics came from.
What we know is that there have been a number of accidents in which the emergency locator did not transmit a signal, not because the ELT failed but because the antenna to which it was attached broke during the accident sequence and, therefore, wasn't able to get a signal out.
No, we're not okay with that. That is why, following the accident involving the Ornge air medical helicopter out of Moosonee, the TSB made seven recommendations, of which, if I recall, four were made to Transport Canada and three to other regulators, to improve the crashworthiness of ELTs, including not just the ELT itself but the antenna system.
Right now, with an ELT there's a gap of 50 seconds before the first signal is sent out and captured by search and rescue. This means that if the antenna is broken during that period, the signal isn't captured. We recommended that this be reviewed and reduced. We've made a number of recommendations to improve the crashworthiness of ELTs, but they are still ongoing.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
I understand that this is with ELTs. With all due respect, an ELT is a rather primitive technology. We have much better now.
For example, in the United States, they're starting to move over now to using ADS-B, which of course is a GPS transponder. There's no reason that this device, the GPS transponder, couldn't also have an emergency beacon within it, becoming a device that does both.
Should Canada not be looking to be innovative and use technology that is of the modern day and age in order to make sure we're looking after the safety of our pilots?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
It would perhaps be better to address that question to Transport Canada as the regulator of these systems. There are multiple countries involved. For now, ICAO, the International Civil Aviation Organization, is continuing to support the use of ELTs.
That being said, absolutely there is new technology on the horizon, but the question is, as that technology may initially be restricted to large aircraft that can afford it, how do we preserve the ability to capture the small aircraft, which may not be able to afford this kind of technology for years to come? In fact, some older aircraft may not even be able to be equipped with it.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
In your estimation then, is an ELT, in fact, the best safety device that can be on board a private aircraft?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
It has its limitations but the fact is that if an airplane goes down in a remote area, somebody needs to know that, so the ELT is what we have. There are other technologies, such as SPOT trackers and other devices—I don't want to use model names—that some people have purchased, and that can provide advice in the event of an aircraft accident, but they don't necessarily meet the crashworthiness standard, so there's an issue there, and not everybody has them.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Okay, but if a GPS device could be created that would make it through a crash intact, would that not be the preferred method to an ELT?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
Again, I don't want to say yes, and I don't want to say no. There are many complex issues associated with it. I think it's up to the regulators involved and the industry to work to develop the most effective solution to make sure that if an aircraft goes down, it can be found.
Liberal
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
Perfect.
I'd like to focus on the issue of the loss of life on fishing vessels, and in particular, the availability and use of equipment to save lives. Are there specific pieces of equipment that are not widely available or being used that we should be focusing our attention on?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
There are two pieces of equipment in particular that the TSB has made recommendations on that are still outstanding and that we continue to push for. One is that all fishermen should be wearing PFDs when they're on board a vessel because either the vessel can capsize, or the person can end up in the water for other reasons, but they have a much greater chance of survival if they're wearing a PFD. The TSB has made recommendations to Transport Canada in that regard, as well as to the provinces from a workplace health and safety perspective.
The other issue has to do with emergency position indicating radio beacons—EPIRBs—which, again, are a type of ELT, but for vessels, which will float free of a vessel that capsizes and send a signal to the satellite or to search and rescue so that the vessel and those people can be located.
Those are two types of equipment that we've recommended that are still not fully required in the fishing industry.
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
With respect to the EPIRBs, right now, is there any issue regarding the actual availability in the marketplace to get these on, or is it just that there isn't a regulatory regime that mandates their use?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
I'm sorry, I don't have the details at my fingertips, but we can certainly make those available to you in terms of which types of vessels require them. There are requirements.... Equipment availability is not an issue. It's about which categories of vessels are required to carry them versus those that aren't, and we believe a wider variety of vessels should be required to carry them.
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
With respect to the magnitude of the issue of fatalities that are actually taking place on fishing vessels, are there certain kinds of vessels that are higher-risk?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
We'd have to look at the stats for that. Fishing vessels are certainly on our watch-list because of the proportionately high number of fatalities in that industry.
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
It's fine if we don't have all the information today.
One area I didn't specifically see is the conflict between fishing vessels when they run into, essentially, a personal dispute over territory, and who should be able to fish what area, which can sometimes lead to violence. Is this an issue the TSB is watching at all?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
No, that would be more of a potentially criminal issue, or a civil issue, so that's not an issue we would look at.
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
One of the issues you flagged was regulatory oversight. Was it just a factor of not having sufficient resources directed to the folks who are supposed to be enforcing the rules that do exist?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
We've seen in a number of investigations—I can quote Lac-Mégantic as an example of the rail and I can quote Ornge as an example of the air—where Transport Canada oversight has been ineffective. Either they didn't identify unsafe operating practices, or they did identify them but were unable to bring the company back into compliance before an accident occurred.
Liberal
Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS
Specific to the loss of life on fishing vessels, I noticed regulatory oversight was flagged by TSB. Are there specific examples you can point to where this has been an issue?
Chair, Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board
The issue there is that not all small vessels are inspected by Transport Canada. They're required to comply with certain standards and regulations, but they're not necessarily inspected. There is a small vessel—
