Transport Committee on Oct. 4th, 2018

[Matt Jeneroux, Edmonton Riverbend, CPC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for spending the time with us this morning.

Madam Chair, I believe that probably both sides of the table have gotten a lot out of the witnesses here today. Again, I really think that there are some good witnesses with whom I would like to continue to stay in touch as the study progresses.

However, this time I'd like to move a motion. I put a number of motions on notice prior to this committee, and I'd like to move one of those motions.

I'll read it for the record. I move that the committee invite the Parliamentary Budget Officer to provide an update on his report on phase 1 of the investing in Canada plan.

I understand that everybody has a copy of the motion. Would you like me to pause before I continue, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Jeneroux, can I suggest that we complete our next few minutes with our witnesses, if it's all right with you?

I'll suspend for a minute so we can deal with your motion, and when we've completed dealing with your motion we'll go into committee business. You've moved the motion. We could just hold it until we complete, if that's all right, and then we will deal with it.

[Matt Jeneroux]

I'm open to the suggestion, Madam Chair, with the exception of ensuring that we still remain in public.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes.

[Matt Jeneroux]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Are there any other comments on this?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Aubin, go ahead.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My next question is for Mr. Orb.

I am a member from Quebec. I admit that my bank of images on Saskatchewan is pretty limited. That is a gap to be filled. Your description of trucking operations in Saskatchewan in your presentation really impressed me. I would like to know whether the importance of trucking services in Saskatchewan is directly related to the railway system's inability to meet the demand or whether both the railway system and the trucking system are experiencing exponential growth.

[Ray Orb]

It's a good question. I think the two industries should work in parallel, but I don't believe they actually do. I think that in a lot of cases, because of what's happened over the last number of years, railways have not proven that they're reliable. Particularly last year, Canadian National had a terrible record moving grain, and they promised to never let that happen again. It's the same old story. A lot of the slack was picked up by CP Rail, in the southern part of Saskatchewan at least. It forced farmers who farm in the northern part of the greenbelt in Saskatchewan to haul their grain by truck to the southern delivery points so it could be shipped out by CP Rail.

I don't believe there is really a correlation. I know that, obviously, some of the grain companies have contracts with trucking companies to move the grain, but it's not really organized very well.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

I asked that question because it seems obvious to me, in this study on trade corridors aimed at increasing trade possibilities, that our greenhouse gas production will also increase. I was wondering how we could align the desired trade growth with a reduction in greenhouse gases.

Have any of the trucks in your fleet gone from oil to liquified gas? Is any work being done in that direction? In other words, is there a concern for reducing greenhouse gases?

[Ray Orb]

To the credit of the trucking industry.... I can only tell you what has been done in Saskatchewan, but most likely it has been done across the country. The truck engines on the semi-trailers are more efficient than they used to be. They're reducing greenhouse gas emissions. They're making themselves more efficient, but it's still not as efficient as moving grain by rail, because they have such higher volumes and obviously there's no infrastructure damage. The rail is already there, although they still have to do repairs, but you're not looking at making repairs on roads and bridges using other equipment that creates greenhouse gas emissions. I think more needs to be done looking at that, but still the efficiency needs to be done by the railways.

In part of my submission, I mentioned increased data. The railways have promised to give more reliable, timely data to the shippers. I think that's starting to happen.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What is the federal government's responsibility in terms of improving the country's railway system?

[Ray Orb]

I think there was more funding for railways at one time. We used to put in funding, especially into rehabilitating some of the branch lines. The railways now have become very efficient, to the point where they're using the major shipping points where they can load large railcars, but the federal government still has to realize that we have lots of branch lines that need extra funding, and some of the short-line railways also need some federal assistance.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We have a couple of minutes left. Do any of the committee members have any particular question they'd like to get answered?

Mr. Hardie, go ahead.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Orb, I've always appreciated Mr. Liepert's questions about oil movements, because I think they build on the narrative that we need to explore. I took your point about the competition that exists between grain movements and oil movements by rail off the prairies. I'm wondering to what degree you are aware of any dialogue going on province to province, or particularly indigenous groups to indigenous groups, between Saskatchewan and British Columbia, to try to square some of the issues that are quite evident on the coast.

[Ray Orb]

Those kinds of conversations I'm not actually aware of.

We work with indigenous groups in our own province. I can tell you that when we meet through the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, unfortunately there aren't indigenous people at those meetings. We talk with provincial organizations across the country.

We had a good discussion a couple of weeks ago in Nova Scotia about energy east and the possibility of re-evaluating that. The Ontario municipalities association is especially interested in that because of the sheer increase in the volume of railcars carrying oil. It's becoming quite a safety issue. It's a traffic issue as well, because it holds up traffic.

I believe the same thing is happening in Vancouver. There's a lot of oil moving by railcar.

We need to look at different ways of moving that oil. It would help not only the western economy but the eastern economy in Canada. We have a refinery there that needs the oil and such. We're using Saudi oil right now in that refinery.

We believe it can create jobs and help increase safety as well.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Broad, I have one quick question for you.

An issue that came up when we were visiting metro Vancouver was the moorage taking place in the Gulf Islands. Is this a flow/efficiency issue with the ports in Vancouver, or is it just a function of the fact that we're getting more and more ship movements with trade?

[Michael Broad]

I think it's the former, mostly because of efficiency, but certainly the amount of cargo has increased. You have ships sitting there for lengthy times waiting for cargo.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Where is the weak link?

[Michael Broad]

I always say that with marine transportation there are a lot of players. We have the truckers, the railways, the terminal operators, the grain elevators, the ports, the ships and the longshoremen. There are a lot of players there, so it's difficult to nail it down.

When the grain comes in, and there's a lot of it.... I think it's a combination of a number of things and a number of players. It's about getting those people together to try to solve the problems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

All right.

Thank you very much.

[Michael Broad]

Madam Chair, I have an answer for Mr. Sikand on the icebreakers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, please.