Transport Committee on Oct. 4th, 2018

[Ray Orb]

I would say that there should be someone who has responsibility for all of that.

Yesterday, when we met with some of the MPs here in Ottawa, we discussed the western development strategy, which was actually a federal initiative for which the government had set aside a fund of money to get input from companies across the country that could focus on western economic development. That's why we made the statements we did today. We believe it has to be multi-faceted. We need to look at pipelines. We need to look at increasing the volume going through the grain corridors, but there needs to be someone who oversees all of this, I agree.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Broad, with respect to pilotage, I'm wondering if, in the pilotage review, we need a kind of one-size-fits-all response to the report versus something that perhaps looks at a broader range of issues. Specifically on the west coast, with all the issues surrounding pipelines and the safe movement of oil by water, I'm thinking whether, for the sake of public confidence, we ensure that the regime there might be different, that it might lean toward the current model, in which we have local pilots with local knowledge being in a better position to ensure safety, versus in other parts of Canada, where other allowances could be made for pilotage.

[Michael Broad]

That's a good question.

Pilotage is regional anyway. There are four authorities across the country: the west coast, the Great Lakes, the St. Lawrence River—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Do you agree with keeping them separate?

[Michael Broad]

No, I like the idea of, at least at the start, merging the GLPA and the LPA. I think that would be a good start.

Mr. Marc Grégoire submitted a report on pilotage to the minister. I think he had some 39 recommendations. We'd like to see all of those recommendations go through and the Pilotage Act amended. Pilotage is regional, yes, but for the west coast and the St. Lawrence, for instance, pilotage is basically overseen by the pilots themselves, private corporations with a monopoly on service and knowledge.

Now, if people are comfortable with that, having for-profit corporations being responsible for safety, having a monopoly on the service, and having a monopoly on the knowledge.... I don't agree with that. I think we need a change in the way pilotage is organized in Canada. Mr. Grégoire came up with some terrific recommendations, and I think that the report shouldn't be split up. The recommendations are there. The report was made with the idea of all of these recommendations going through.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

We're running out of time here.

I've asked the clerk if she would get the report you referenced and circulate it for the information of the committee as well.

Mr. Aubin, go ahead.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank each of the witnesses for joining us this morning. I am happy to be able to benefit from their expertise.

I will begin with you, Mr. Broad. We will talk about the same topic—pilots—but I would like to first congratulate you on the clarity of your presentation, which does a very good job of indicating where your priorities lie. We will try to discover that together. I think there is consensus around this table on our need to acquire an icebreaker fleet worthy of the 21st century.

I want to come back to the issue of pilotage. You, as well as shipowners, often establish a link between pilotage and costs. So we are talking about the competitiveness of service. Costs excluded, do you recognize the necessity of services provided by Canadian pilots regarding all bodies of water?

[Michael Broad]

Absolutely.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

In your opinion, the problem has to do with competitiveness. Pilotage costs would be higher than in other regions or countries. I have looked at Marc Grégoire's report. Last week, when we went on tour, we heard from pilot associations that submitted a report, which was completely forgotten in Mr. Grégoire's report. That report clearly shows that pilotage costs in Canada are not higher than in other countries. I don't want to get into that debate this morning, but I want to know whether you have a study that would help us make that comparison and see whether there is indeed an issue with pilotage costs.

[Michael Broad]

First, let me state that I think there's a problem with the efficiency of pilotage. Cost is one of the things included in efficiency, but there's also the service aspect.

Second, you're right that the cost of pilotage is pretty well the same all over the world, because pilots are organized as private cartels throughout the world.

When you think of the cost of pilotage and the safety, there's no doubt that pilotage services in Canada have been very safe over the past 25 years, but there are certainly areas for improvement. We can become more efficient on pilotage. I'm not just trying to focus on costs; I'm trying to focus on efficiency, the service to be provided. Because a pilot makes $500,000, is he safer than a pilot who earns $300,000? On the west coast, pilots can make $500,000, but in the river they make $400,000 and in the Great Lakes they make $300,000. Is it safer on the west coast? I don't think so.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I understand your approach. However, I am wondering whether, once a more competitive market is opened up to pilotage, safety may be jeopardized. The lower the pilotage costs, the more companies that compete amongst themselves may tend to take increased risks in order to moor more vessels and make faster traffic possible. The risk of incidents, which is currently non-existent—the safety record for pilotage associations is quite remarkable—could increase.

[Michael Broad]

We don't believe in competitive pilotage. We believe in a safe, efficient pilotage system.

Mr. Grégoire's report does not make any recommendations to have competitive pilotage. I know that the pilots themselves do not like one of the recommendations, which is to allow the pilotage authorities that oversee all of these pilots the option of hiring entrepreneurial pilots, like those on the west coast or the river, or employee pilots, like those in the Atlantic or the Great Lakes. The pilots are very concerned. They keep saying that if the authority has the option of hiring a contract pilot or an employee pilot, then there is going to be competition.

We disagree with that, because, for the last hundred years, the pilots have been saying that they're professionals. It's something like the medical system. In Canada, we have a public medical system, and we have a private system in some areas. The doctors get paid the same for doing the same thing. The private guys charge the add-ons, but there's no competition between them. You have trucking companies that have owner-operator drivers and employee drivers.

Mr. Grégoire's recommendations were well-thought-out. We don't agree with pilots competing for business, but safety is the number one thing because our ships are big, expensive machines. We appreciate the job that pilots do. I have always said that the pilots in Canada are some of the top pilots anywhere in the world, but there's room for efficiency.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Iacono, go ahead.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for joining us this morning.

The Transportation 2030 strategic plan makes a commitment to improving information, data and analysis related to trade and transportation in the country.

Mr. Broad, what is the current state of data on marine transportation? What are its strength and weaknesses? How can we improve it?

[Michael Broad]

I think the ports have data on cargo, tonnage, number of ships, and those kinds of statistics. Transport Canada used to....

Karen, did they used to—

[Karen Kancens]

Statistics Canada used to publish an annual report on transportation with marine stats called “Shipping in Canada”. The last year we saw that was 2011. Yes, there are statistics on a port basis, but there's no comprehensive source that pulls all of that together and gives us a good view of what's coming in which port, what's going out, what the volumes are, what the trends are, and how the numbers have changed over the years, not in general terms but in port-specific and commodity-specific terms.

That's another element of a transportation and trade corridor strategy, access to that kind of information. We simply don't have it now. We have to go to different sources and try to piece it together, but certainly we have no comprehensive source of information on the maritime side.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

What are the repercussions of the decision to stop publishing that document? Why are you asking that it be published again? Can you give us further details on that?

[Karen Kancens]

We have made the request on numerous occasions. Again, I think it's difficult to make good decisions when you don't have the evidence basis on which to make them. You need numbers to back up infrastructure investments and to back up dollars, and you need that broader view. You need to be able to compare regions, compare ports and see trends. As I said, we don't have that now. We don't have all the information that we need to make sound infrastructure investment decisions.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Broad, you also mentioned something with respect to icebreaking challenges. Which months of the year are affected? You also said we need to create a concrete plan to renew the fleet. Can you elaborate on this, please?

[Michael Broad]

First of all, in the Arctic it's in the summer for resupply. For the St. Lawrence River, we're talking the end of November until the end of March. For the Great Lakes, of course, it's at opening, which is the end of March and at the end December. The season is pretty well from the end of November through the end of March.

What was the second part?

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

You talked about a concrete plan to renew the fleet.

[Michael Broad]

Yes. I think the Coast Guard has been working on coming up with some ideas for the fleet, but there's never anything made public about it, so we don't get the feeling there's a commitment there to invest in the long term.

We have ships there for which I think the average age is 38 years. They are getting on. I think icebreaking is very important. We have to keep commerce moving, both through the lakes and on the St. Lawrence River. Indeed, we need icebreakers in Atlantic Canada, too.

We would like to see the Coast Guard come out publicly with a plan in which the government has agreed on what kinds of ships they are going to build and when those ships are going to be built.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

How many do you have presently?

[Michael Broad]

I think we have 12 or 13, but we have only a few medium-sized and heavy icebreakers right now—I think five or six. The number escapes me, sorry.