Transport Committee on Nov. 27th, 2018

[The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)), Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you all very much for coming in for an eight o'clock start this morning. There are so many of you here, so we really appreciate it. I'm sure you didn't appreciate the call for eight o'clock, but thank you all very much for making it here this morning.

We gather here this morning to study a number of votes from the supplementary estimates (A), 2018-19: namely, votes 1a, 5a, 10a, 15a and 20a under Department of Transport; vote 1a under Canadian Air Transport Security Authority; and vote 1a under Canadian Transportation Agency.

I'm delighted to welcome the Honourable Marc Garneau, Minister of Transport, along with officials from Transport Canada. We have Michael Keenan, deputy minister, who has been here often to visit us, and André Lapointe, assistant deputy minister for corporate services and chief financial officer, as well as Lawrence Hanson, assistant deputy minister for policy.

From the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, I would like to welcome Neil Parry, vice-president of service delivery, and Nancy Fitchett, acting vice-president of corporate affairs and chief financial officer.

From the Canadian Transportation Agency, I'd like to welcome Liz Barker, vice-chair, and Manon Fillion, chief corporate officer.

We also have representatives from three other departments.

From the Department of Western Economic Diversification, we have Barbara Motzney, assistant deputy minister, policy and strategic direction. From the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, we have Sheilagh Murphy, assistant deputy minister, lands and economic development. From the Department of Indigenous Services Canada, we have Scott Doidge, director general, non-insured health benefits directorate, first nations and Inuit health branch.

Welcome, everyone. Thank you very much for coming.

On vote 1a under the Department of Transport, Minister Garneau, you have five minutes, please.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the invitation to meet with the committee. As you know, I am joined by several people today, as the chair mentioned.

I'm pleased to be here to talk about some of the important work being done in the federal transportation portfolio, which includes Transport Canada, Crown corporations, agencies and administrative tribunals. Funding for these federal organizations helps to make Canada's transportation system safer, more secure, more efficient and more environmentally responsible. I, and the organizations in the federal transportation portfolio, remain committed to sound fiscal management and solid stewardship of government resources, while delivering results for Canadian taxpayers.

Transport Canada's supplementary estimates (A) for 2018-19 total $32 million. This figure includes funding for a variety of programs. There is $10.5 million in new funding. Most of this new funding will be used to transition to the Government of Canada's holistic and transformative system for impact assessment and regulatory decision-making.

New and incremental resources will allow Transport Canada to meet its responsibilities, which have been expanded under the new impact assessment and regulatory review system. This includes a transformative approach to working with indigenous peoples to advance reconciliation, recognize and respect indigenous rights and jurisdiction, foster collaboration and ensure that indigenous knowledge is considered.

This system includes modifications that would create the Canadian navigable waters act, which is currently before Parliament as part of Bill C-69. The changes would ensure that the public right to navigate is protected in Canada's navigable waters and would restore lost protections and incorporate modern safeguards.

These supplementary estimates include a reprofiling of funds totalling $21.6 million. This reprofiling includes funding for safety-related capital infrastructure at local and regional airports, for a variety of rail safety projects under our rail safety improvement program and for maintenance on ferries on the east coast.

Transfers from Transport Canada to other federal departments in the supplementary estimates total less than $1 million, and there is $840,000 listed for statutory employee benefit plan costs related to the aforementioned projects.

I am very proud of Transport Canada's ongoing work.

I'll take a few moments to highlight a specific priority, which is investment in our country's transportation corridors, particularly our trade corridors. “Trade Corridors to Global Markets” is one of the five themes of transportation 2030, our government's strategic plan for the future of transportation in Canada.

We can have the best products in the world, but if we can't get them to our customers quickly and reliably, we will lose business to other suppliers. We are working with stakeholders to address bottlenecks, vulnerabilities and congestion along our trade corridors, and the trade and transportation corridors initiative is a significant part of this effort.

We announced the trade and transportation corridors initiative in July 2017, including the national trade corridors fund, which is a cornerstone of this initiative. The national trade corridors fund is designed to help infrastructure owners and users invest in our roads, bridges, airports, rail lines, port facilities and trade corridors. Through this fund, our government is investing $2 billion over a span of 11 years. We have already announced funding for projects, including railway corridors, airport runways, port facilities, bridges, highways and more. These are critical transportation assets that support the movement of goods and people in Canada. The national trade corridors fund has been accelerated, as you know, to enable more projects to address bottlenecks to trade diversification.

Our trade corridors are important for moving domestic trade to international markets and for helping Canadian businesses to complete, grow and create more jobs for the country's middle class. Canada is a trading nation, and one in six Canadian jobs depends on international commerce. For our economy to succeed, we have to ensure that our products, our services and our citizens have access to key global markets. This is an important reason why I am proud of the work Transport Canada is doing throughout the trade and transportation corridors initiative and the national trade corridors fund.

But Transport Canada is not the only organization in the federal transportation portfolio. The Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, or CATSA, is also an important part of the Canadian transportation landscape.

CATSA is seeking to reprofile $36 million of capital funds in supplementary estimates (A) this year. The majority of this capital reprofiling—approximately $29 million—is for postponed equipment purchase and integration work for the new hold baggage screening system. This is part of CATSA'S capital life-cycle management plan to align with revised airport project plans.

My mandate has not changed since being named Minister of Transport three years ago. I continue to ensure that Canada's transportation system supports economic growth and job creation. I continue to work to ensure that our transportation system is safe and reliable, and facilitates trade and the movement of people and goods. I continue to work to ensure that our roads, ports and airports are integrated and sustainable, and allow Canadians and businesses to more easily engage globally.

The financial resources sought through these supplementary estimates would help the organizations in my portfolio as we continue to ensure that our transportation system serves Canadians' needs now and for years to come.

Thank you. If you have any questions, I would be happy to answer them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Minister Garneau.

We'll go to Mrs. Block, for six minutes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank you, Minister Garneau, for joining us today for 90 minutes. We're very pleased to be able to ask many questions. We look forward to your answers. I also want to welcome the departmental officials you've brought with you. There's quite a team here today. I do appreciate the fact that they've taken the time to join us this morning.

I know that we are studying the supplementary estimates and government spending, but I would like to ask some questions around a bill that we studied recently. It was referred to us by the finance committee. It was part of the budget implementation act, Bill C-86.

There were a couple of divisions in the budget implementation act that I think come directly from Transport Canada. They were buried within this budget implementation act between pages 589 and 649, in divisions 22 and 23. They contain substantial changes to the Canada Shipping Act and the Marine Liability Act.

One of the witnesses appearing before the committee for the Chamber of Shipping noted that clause 692 of this bill appears to be another mechanism with which to implement a moratorium on specific commodities through regulation and interim order, not legislation as the government has already done through Bill C-48. The witness noted that this contradicts what should be the government's objective in providing a predictable supply chain.

Quite honestly, Minister, there is no question in my mind that the inclusion of this clause in Bill C-86 will have a further chilling effect on Canada's oil and gas industry. My question for you this morning is, can you assure Canadians that this will not be yet another measure to undermine Canada's oil and gas sector?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I thank my colleague for the question.

Of course, the parts in Bill C-86 that she is referring to have to do with modifications that we will be making to the Canada Shipping Act of 2001 and the Marine Liability Act. These were referenced specifically in the budgets of 2017 and 2018 in the context of the oceans protection plan, which is a very important government initiative.

Canada relies on safe and clean coasts and waters for trade, economic growth and quality of life. We also recognize that our oceans hold a special place in the traditions and culture of Canadians, notably indigenous communities. We are taking decisive, concrete action to ensure that our oceans will continue to be enjoyed by all Canadians today and for generations to come.

To support safe and environmentally responsible shipping, divisions 22 and 23 of Bill C-86 propose legislative amendments to enhance marine environmental protection and strengthen marine safety. That is the purpose of those two.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much. I appreciate your answer on that. I would like to follow up with you on another question, since you did raise the oceans protection plan. We had this question for your ADM, who appeared before our committee on Bill C-86.

We understood that the legislative consultations for the oceans protection plan concluded on Friday, October 26. Bill C-86 was tabled on Monday, October 29. Look, as good as the lawyers are within Transport Canada and at the justice department, no one really believes that they could actually get these clauses drafted and get them to the printer in two days. In fact, the shipping community was very surprised to see these clauses included in Bill C-86.

Minister, when did you decide to include these substantial changes in the BIA, and why did Transport Canada's website continue to suggest that these consultations were still ongoing?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I can tell you that we have been focusing on the oceans protection plan for a little over two years now. As you know, it was announced on November 7, 2016 by the Prime Minister in Vancouver. I was beside him at the time.

There are over 50 measures involved in the oceans protection plan. It is truly a world-leading initiative to ensure that our oceans are safer, that our marine environment is more protected and that our capability to respond is greater. One of the parts of this that we have always been planning to do is to make changes to these two acts that I mentioned to you before.

One of them is directly related to liability in case there is a spill. We've made some very important changes there with respect to that. The other one is to also have the capability within the government to make certain changes to protect marine species, such as the ability to order slowdowns, let's say in the Salish Sea, if we decide that it is important for the protection of endangered species.

We want to strengthen—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you, Minister. I would like to just quickly follow up. I think I have 45 seconds left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have about 20 seconds.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Witnesses who appeared before the committee did note that these were the most substantial changes to be made to the Canada Shipping Act and Marine Liability Act in 10 years, in one case, and in another case, 25 years, so they were very surprised and perhaps even disappointed to see that these were buried within a budget implementation act.

Thank you.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

You're welcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Block.

Mr. Hardie, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everybody, and thanks for being here.

Minister Garneau, we've been spending a little time looking at a couple of very important trade corridors in Canada. My colleague Vance Badawey and I were fortunate to have studies done in our home areas.

In looking at the west coast, I wonder if you could comment on the role and mandate of the WESTAC group. I understand that they have a coordinating function with respect to planning and implementation of improvements in the trade corridor.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I'd be pleased, Mr. Hardie, to comment on that. In fact, my deputy minister is involved with WESTAC as well, as a government representative.

As you hint, it is an organization that is strongly focused on the fluidity of transportation on the west coast. Of course, the port of Vancouver, as we all know, is by far the largest port in Canada. There is significant concern about bottlenecks in the Lower Mainland and all the way into the inland port of Ashcroft. To ensure that we are moving goods as efficiently as possible to this very strategic port, WESTAC fulfills an important function in that respect.

Certainly, the dialogue about where the bottlenecks are is crucial to our decision-making process when we award funding—through the national trade corridors fund—to particular projects, where the purpose, I might repeat, is to reduce bottlenecks or eliminate them. The input from WESTAC is an extremely important input.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

One of the things we noticed in our conversations with the various component parts of metro Vancouver's trade corridor was that there's an option to spend an awful lot of money there to improve the corridor. You mentioned choke points. There are three that lead to the north shore, where a lot of the bulk and break bulk terminals are located in the inner harbour, as we call it. There's the bridge at New Westminster, which is over 100 years old now. There's a tunnel that goes underneath Burnaby Mountain. Then there's another bridge that crosses right next to the Second Narrows bridge.

Looking at the cost of potential improvements there, it would be quite substantial, but at the same time, the potential for growth in terms of the material-handling capabilities of the north shore of Burrard Inlet is somewhat limited. The concern arises that we need to have oversight that looks at the big picture, not just the component parts, to start to identify alternatives for development that might not necessarily be in the field of vision of the railways or the port of metro Vancouver, etc. Are you satisfied that we have that kind of line of thinking going?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I agree with what you've just expressed. We do need to not just zero in on specific projects.

There are a lot of specific projects that are recognized as bottlenecks, some of which we addressed in our first awarding of funding under the national trade corridors fund. We announced them during the course of the past few months.

But you're right. We should look at the bigger picture. I believe that when our department judges the different applications for funding for the different bottlenecks that are in the Lower Mainland, each time we do look at the big picture with the idea of optimizing, because that's the most important criterion: How much will this help to make the transportation more fluid?

As you know, the port of Vancouver and the railways—there are three class I railways that come into it, as well as a very large amount of trucking in a very busy area where there are a lot of people going about their lives and driving their cars—really have to be looked at in a way that we can optimize for the taxpayers' money, because there is more demand than there is money. I think that in itself forces us to try to optimize towards what will provide the best long-term solution in terms of that transport fluidity.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I think a lot of people were comforted by the move to a new class of railcars for shipping oil. We know that's the backup until such time as we get more pipeline capacity to the west coast.

In terms of the overall shipping regime, there are grains to move. There is obviously more oil to move. What is your sense of how the rail system is performing in the national interest or in the national strategy for getting the right things to market?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I think the changes made through Bill C-49 in the modernization of the Canada Transportation Act went in the right direction. That was to try to optimize the movement of commodities. We happen to be at a time when there is a very strong demand for moving goods in this country. You're right to point out that it is the movement of grain, but it is also the movement of many other commodities. I hear regularly from the mining community, from the forestry community, from the potash community. These are important commodities that are headed for our ports. Of course, right now there's an increased demand for shipping oil by rail as well.

The railways know that there is a strong demand, because they're receiving it. At the same time, we have to ensure that there is not a focus that advantages one commodity versus other commodities. That is essentially the situation you have to deal with when the economy is running strongly, as it is at the moment, and there is enormous demand for Canadian products.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Benson, we will go to you. Welcome to our committee this morning.

[Sheri Benson, Saskatoon West, NDP]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the minister and all the folks from the various departments for being here.

I am going to turn the conversation a little bit. I come from Saskatchewan; obviously, access to affordable transportation for rural and remote communities and people's ability to travel are concerns for me. I have raised these a number of times—in particular, the safe transportation for indigenous women and the support we provide for public transportation outside of large urban centres. People may not necessarily have heard what I've said, but I see the bus service in western Canada as our subway. I feel it deserves support and leadership from the federal government.

It's been almost two years since the Saskatchewan Transportation Company closed and 253 communities in Saskatchewan lost service. Folks listening today should understand that this means more than just having an inexpensive way to get to the city to do some shopping. We're talking about students' ability to go to post-secondary education, people's ability to be employed, the movement of medical supplies between urban centres and smaller centres, and of course people accessing health care. Then, of course, the other shoe dropped. We lost Greyhound service in northern Ontario and the rest of western Canada.

I have a couple of questions to get an update on what I feel is the federal government's role in this and the parameters around it. I understand jurisdiction, but it's also my feeling that any level of government can lead on an issue to bring people together and help provide a service to communities while co-operating with other levels of government. I just put that out there to encourage you to think about what role the federal government has.

Minister, concerning Greyhound, we have heard that anywhere between 87% and 90% of the routes have been covered. I'm wondering if you could let us know where the routes are that currently are not being covered and what the federal government's plan is to deal with that. In particular, I'd be interested in hearing where those routes are and if one province is really being left out in the cold, so to speak.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Thank you for your question.

Since July, when Greyhound announced that they were pulling out of the west and a little part of northern Ontario, our ministry did get together with the provinces. You're right that, even though transportation by coach has been on the decrease for a very long time, there are vulnerable populations that depend on it, such as people who have no other choice financially and people in remote regions. There has been a coordination between the federal and the provincial. When I say federal, we've also brought in Indigenous Services Canada and CIRNAC, as well as ISED, so that we could look at this challenge that is in front of us.

As you point out, there was a take-up on 87% of the routes that were dropped by Greyhound, and that's a good thing because they feel they can make a go of it. However, you're right that there are also some that haven't been. We can provide you with the details of the actual trajectories we're talking about that haven't, but we have a plan there as well. If you look at what's been lost by Greyhound leaving, mostly they're in Alberta and British Columbia. We have worked with those two provinces, so that if, at some point, they go out with a request for proposals to find a line through a competitive process, we would be there to assist them financially. That is the plan with respect to that.

On indigenous and remote communities, which is through ISC, we have put in place a plan to work with indigenous communities that want to also set up a commercial capability themselves, so we feel that process is under way as well.

That's only a short-term solution. We need a long-term solution, so part of what we announced a few weeks ago also includes, within two years, coming up with a more national...we're talking about all 10 provinces and three territories.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 10 seconds left, Ms. Benson.

[Sheri Benson]

I'll underline the point that those who need to access services, particularly those with disabilities, should be included when we're starting to talk about a plan for Canada. I would suggest you start where there is no bus service or where we're really struggling.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Ms. Benson.

We'll move on to Mr. Graham.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here today.

The Laurentians are home to more than 10,000 lakes, so figuring out who has jurisdiction over what in the aquatic domain is extremely complicated. Who is responsible for bodies of water? Who is responsible for what is below the surface? That's one of the biggest concerns in my riding.

Transport Canada is responsible for the Vessel Operation Restriction Regulations. We know that consultations on the regulations were launched. Can you or a member of your team give us an update on the consultation process?