Transport Committee on April 9th, 2019

[The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)), Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I call to order this meeting of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. This is meeting 137.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are doing a study of bus passenger safety.

We will start with the witnesses we have with us for this section.

From DRL Coach Lines Ltd, we have Jason Roberts, chief executive officer. He is coming to us from Newfoundland and Labrador. From Parsons and Sons Transportation, we have Scott Parsons, president.

Mr. Roberts, perhaps you would like to lead off, please, for no more than five minutes.

[Jason Roberts, Chief Executive Officer, DRL Coach Lines Ltd]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's a pleasure to be with you people today via teleconference to talk about the safety of our operation and of all operations within the country for motorcoaches and school buses. Specifically right now we are more in the operation of motorcoaches. We operate a line-run scheduled service from Port aux Basques to St. John’s, and they're off every day of the year, 365 days a year.

We've been in the business for three years shy of a century. With DRL, it's been almost 25 years.

We have many decisions to make when it comes to safety. Of course you have to have a safe vehicle, and a competent and conscientious driver who meets the requirements. As the operator, we have to have confidence in the person operating the vehicle. For us, as the people who trust those people to operate safely, to feel very confident whom we're putting there, that's not an easy task, especially for us here in Newfoundland. A good driver can go to Alberta and probably make three times the money. We still have to be very dependent on whom we choose and whom we put behind the wheel.

As I stated, the safety record for motorcoaches.... We can't be too sure of...our maintenance team before the bus goes on the road. But as a driver, it's your last-second or multi-second decision that decides where we are. Either we're on the road or we're in the rhubarb, in the ditch. We count on them very confidently to do that task for us.

When it comes to motorcoaches, there are many things.... I think a lot of people look at motorcoaches, and even school buses as a playground. We pick up charter groups. We pick up people. Passengers get on a motorcoach and they feel as if they're almost indispensable. We have seat belts in all our motorcoaches, but 40% or 50% are being used.

I think education for passengers on the importance of wearing seat belts is a critical factor. That comes with time. As education and as more and more discussions go on, people are going to make sure they wear those seat belts.

On the training of drivers—and I will come back to the operator of the school bus or motorcoach—my recommendation is that the more we can do to guarantee we have competent, careful and cautious drivers...that's where I feel that we should be going for the safety of the travelling public on motorcoaches and school buses in this country.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Roberts.

Mr. Parsons, you have five minutes, please.

[Scott Parsons, President, Parsons and Sons Transportation]

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak. I don't think I can say it all in five minutes. I'd love to be able to.

How do we achieve superior results in this industry? We employ superior people, we hire up, and we train, retrain, remedial train, we look for opportunities to be the best we can be for the passengers we carry.

In this country, I think we need more standardization of the way buses operate, and I think we need more standardization of the way our highways are marked. I'd like to know how many bus accidents were caused on ramps where the ramp speed was posted on the ramp and not before the ramp. I've seen this. I've seen buses where people were ejected from the bus and killed because the bus fell on them. Seat belts would definitely have prevented those deaths. We need better standardization of driver training. It just so happens that our company had the good fortune of joining forces with OMCA and Motor Coach Canada. We've been coming here for years. We've adopted every type of enhancement suggested to us by Brian Crow, Mr. Switzer, people in the OMCA, Dave Carroll—they've been our mentors. They've helped us to grow our business to be safe.

Training not only involves drivers, it involves mechanical staff. I'm lucky enough that I've been driving a bus and I've been a mechanic for 47 years. I've been to factory training at Prevost nine times, and Motor Coach Industries twice. I know the value of training, and I know that in our province today there are few places you can go where if you say MUX or DOC, DPF, DEF, that anyone in the garage would have a clue what you're talking about. This gives us a big problem when we're out on the road with a coach in Labrador or in the northern part of Newfoundland where I fix buses over the phone. It is a consideration. Manufacturers have stepped up. Prevost Car has Prevost Liaison. MCI has MCI ERSA, where now they can diagnose over a computer. It's fabulous. Technicians need to know how to do that. Companies have to invest in that.

Is there any minimal requirement for that? Would we be allowed to operate if the FAA was telling us how we should be conducting our business?

I've seen bad accidents caused by the way guardrails were posted on bridges. I wrote a letter to the Ministry of Transportation in Nova Scotia and had a bridge approach changed because of an accident involving one of our coaches. They tried to make it sound like it was the driver's inexperience on that bridge. A few years later, an Orléans Express bus went out into the water. Then I wrote the letter—two years too late. The bridge approach was changed and I received a letter from the Ministry of Transportation thanking me for my input.

We need more input like this. I consider this industry to be like a logic gate: more inputs, more outputs. We need more input from the industry.

I do think the seat belt rule is fabulous. I've retrofitted some MCI coaches with seat belts. It was costly but it was worth every penny. On safety announcements in coaches, I always do my safety announcement. I walk back through the bus and I make sure that people have their seat belts on. Whether they keep them on...how do we control that?

There's just too much to talk about, but I'm flattered that I'm here. I'm second generation. I filled up when I came here. I think you guys are onto something really good; I wish you the best of luck with it. If there's anything I can do, please let me know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Parsons. I'm sure the committee will enjoy getting their questions answered from both of the gentlemen we have here.

Ms. Block, for five minutes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I want to thank our witnesses for joining us here this morning for this very important study.

I'm going to ask a question and either of you could feel free to answer it. I understand that the changes to the seat belt requirements on coach buses was in part an effort to harmonize Canada's regulations with the United States. In your view, was this a positive move by Transport Canada?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Excuse me, can I just interrupt? The bells are going, which means a vote has been called. Do I have the permission of the committee to continue until five minutes before the vote?

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

What would be your plan, from a scheduling standpoint? Would we stay with questions until we vote and then let these guests go free?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

With the two gentlemen we have, we'll do five minutes for Ms. Block, five minutes here and five minutes over to Mr. Aubin.

By that time, I think we'd have to go for the vote, and then we would not have any further opportunity. We would go on to the next panel when we return from the vote.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

As long as that's the schedule, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Is everybody good with that? Okay. Thank you.

My apologies in advance, Mr. Parsons and Mr. Roberts, but you know how it is.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Would you like me to re-ask that question?

[Jason Roberts]

No, I can answer.

Of course, I think it's a very positive move to bring the seat belt regulation forward. It's going to take some time to get there. As I stated in the beginning, I think even with regard to the users of coaches—especially when you get into charters and into younger groups, younger teams—a lot of them feel that it's a place where, on board, they're safe and don't need seat belts. So, it's going to take some input, some education, some training and some encouragement to really get results out of that.

There are accidents that happen where people get hurt with their seat belts on. I have been witness to that. Two years ago, I had a rollover with a coach. It tipped on its side. It didn't go on the roof. The only ones who were injured were the ones who didn't have their seat belts on, and the ones with no seat belt on fell on the people who had seat belts on, with an elbow in the groin or whatever. So, it still takes usage of this to really make it work.

[Scott Parsons]

Seat belts are a very positive thing, yes, by all means. Younger people today.... My children, when they got on board a bus without seat belts, they were looking for them. They were shocked that there were no seat belts on the bus.

It's interesting. I drive a school bus from time to time, and the small children, when they get aboard, they turn around and say, “Mom, there's no seat belt.” They're not allowed to be in the car unless they have their seat belt on. I think we're heading towards a culture where children are going to want to put them on as they grow older. I think we should have a mandate to put seat belts there.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Okay.

We've heard from previous witnesses, certainly, around the issue of seat belts on school buses in terms of compliance and enforcement. Who will be responsible to not only ensure that children do up their seat belts, but make sure that they stay done up during the duration of the time they are on the bus?

Who enforces the wearing of seat belts on a coach, and if right now it's not mandatory, how would you say coach companies would address that issue in terms of ensuring that people are complying with any sort of seat belt law?

[Scott Parsons]

Go ahead, Jason.

[Jason Roberts]

For me, it's going to be very difficult to enforce. On my scheduled service, actually, I have an on-board attendant, like a flight attendant. It's probably something I can give them or the government can give them: the autonomy to make sure that people have their seat belt on or at the next stop they're going to be asked to get off—“Take bags. See you. Goodbye. You're in violation of the act.” I can make that happen there very well. But, of course, that comes with a cost. I'm already incurring the cost, so I can make it happen relatively simply.

I don't think you're going to find that anywhere else in Canada, where there's an on-board attendant. Realistically, it's difficult.

I'll give you an example. I have coaches that take very professional men and women to job sites. Am I going to be called probably twice a week and asked if I can check and see if the men and women who are going to work on the coach are in compliance with wearing seat belts? I mean, come on. In my world, you're an adult lady. You're going to get on the coach. You have a seat belt. You know that you should have it on.

With school buses, it's a little different. Again, it's probably going to come back to a chaperone. I think the driver has enough stress and pressure to make sure he's driving the way he should, with due care and attention, to maintain his coach or school bus where it should be. He should not really have to make sure that the kids have seat belts on, or have some kid screeching that one kid has his seat belt off, you know?

It's going to be very difficult. It's going to have some sort of monitoring in order to get it to work. However, I think with time—and as Mr. Parsons stated—with the education of the kids, they will get on, and probably within five or six years, 95% of them will have their seat belts on. Again, it's not the driver's responsibility in a passenger car to make sure that the passengers have seat belts on, if they're of age. As for younger passengers, they are responsible.

Thank you.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Parsons and Mr. Roberts, one thing you could consider, if your coaches are equipped with safety belts, is to have some kind of document or notice on the ticket about contributory liability. If they're not wearing a safety belt and they are injured, that reduces the damages they're entitled to, because they have contributed to their own difficulty by not wearing the seat belt.

It becomes a little more difficult with kids, of course; normally a child isn't travelling alone, but then it should be the responsibility of the parent or guardian to make sure that happens.

Looking at your fleet, the focus of this study is to talk about survivability in the event of a crash. Obviously, anything you can do to prevent the crash in the first place is absolutely golden, but once a crash takes place, that's where the safety equipment on the vehicle makes a big difference.

Do either of you do a mid-life refit on your buses? Would you have an opportunity in that case of retrofitting seat belts, or is that a dead letter as far as you're concerned because you already have seat belts on all your coaches?

Go ahead, Scott.

[Scott Parsons]

We had two MCI coaches retrofitted two years ago. We sent them to Montreal, and they did them to factory spec, I'm told. It cost around $40,000 per coach. They removed the old seats.

I was told the frame of the coach when it was built was sturdy enough to support the three-point seat belt in the case of a collision. It's been a resounding success.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How often do you replace your fleet?

[Scott Parsons]

As often as we can afford to, sir. We've been fortunate the past few years. I just purchased a new 2019 coach a few days ago. It's in Winnipeg. I purchased a new coach last year, two the year before and one the year before that. They all had three-point seat belts.

Everything we buy now has seat belts, plus we have had those two sent back to the factory. I'm planning on sending three more like it back to the factory. It's expensive, but it's worth it.

The bonuses—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Sir, I'll have to interrupt you right there because we're short of time.

Mr. Roberts, the integrity of the actual coach itself.... We certainly witnessed horrific damage in the case of the Humboldt crash, and we've heard so far that there don't necessarily seem to be very strong standards with respect to the frame and the integrity of a coach in the event of a crash.

What have you noticed?

[Jason Roberts]

That's a difficult one.

If it's a slight crash, I think the flexibility of the unit gives you less impact. You don't have as much ejection and so much sudden, abrupt stop-standing. The coach absorbs some of the energy of the impact.

It all depends how significant it is. If you have a 65,000-pound tractor-trailer coming toward you, let's be fair, it's not going to withstand it. I don't know what you can make that would withstand that. It's horrific. It's very dangerous and nasty.