Evidence of meeting #14 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rail.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Fred Gaspar  Chief Compliance Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
Randall Meades  Chief Strategy Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency
Kathy Fox  Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Jean Laporte  Chief Operating Officer, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Kirby Jang  Director, Investigations Rail and Pipeline, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Laureen Kinney  Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Brigitte Diogo  Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Benoit Turcotte  Acting Director General, Department of Transport

4:05 p.m.

Chief Compliance Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency

Fred Gaspar

As Randy indicated, a guide is published. We can certainly get you copies. The intention is to ensure that the municipalities and the provinces understand and take account of the operational and the economic impacts of what's being proposed and, obviously, from the railways' perspective, that they properly understand what constitutes an appropriate set of movements through a dense urban area. Members would probably agree that, given time, parties acting in good faith are likely to come up with good solutions. Where these things tend to fail is when short-term decisions are needed in short order, and the business cycle doesn't permit it. As I said, this piece of legislation hasn't been accessed since 1987.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

That's very interesting.

Under the heading “Railway crossings and cost apportionment”, in your opening remarks you also speak to the fact that “the construction or reconstruction of a crossing can be negotiated between a railway company and other parties”. Who would those other parties be? I assume they include a municipality, or...? What other parties might be involved in that negotiation?

4:05 p.m.

Chief Strategy Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency

Randall Meades

It's the province, the municipality, primarily, and the railway company itself.

4:05 p.m.

Chief Compliance Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency

Fred Gaspar

It's intended to capture the road authority. Sometimes the road authority isn't necessarily the local government, for instance.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you both very much for providing us with that information.

I believe Mr. Hardie wanted to raise a point of order.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

You've referenced your annual reports a few times, and they sound like they're pretty rich in information. Your advice to ministers, etc., would be useful for us to us at this time.

I'd like to ask if you could submit your last five annual reports, so we can also get an idea of trends and some of the things that you've been reporting—

4:10 p.m.

Chief Strategy Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency

Randall Meades

Absolutely.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

—as documents for our consideration.

4:10 p.m.

Chief Strategy Officer, Canadian Transportation Agency

Randall Meades

They're available online as well.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Good. Thank you.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you both very much.

We will suspend to allow the other witnesses to come to the table.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

We will resume committee business.

To Mr. Laporte, Ms. Fox, and Mr. Jang, thank you very much for coming today as we move forward on this important railway study.

Mrs. Fox, the floor is yours.

4:10 p.m.

Kathy Fox Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and members of the committee. I want to thank you for inviting the Transportation Safety Board of Canada to appear today.

I bring with me two colleagues who bring a wealth of experience. To my right is Mr. Jean Laporte, chief operating officer, and to my left is Mr. Kirby Jang, the director of rail and pipeline investigations.

Given the shorter period of time scheduled for today's appearance, we thought it would be more efficient to submit our original, longer, preliminary remarks that deal with who we are and what we do in advance. I hope that's been distributed.

What I'd like to do now is briefly outline some updates.

The most powerful tool that the Transportation Safety Board of Canada has to advance transportation safety is through our recommendations to regulators and the industry in significant cases where we've identified a serious systemic risk that is not being adequately mitigated.

These recommendations are our highest level of communication and they carry significant weight. Under the CTAISB Act, the relevant minister has 90 days to respond as to if and how the department intends to address it.

Since it was established in 1990, the Transportation Safety Board has published 144 recommendations to improve rail safety. The TSB has not lost sight of any of them. We assess the initial responses and follow up. We also re-assess every year until we feel enough progress has been made that the risk has either been eliminated or else substantially reduced.

It may take time, but over the years we have a good track record of success. Of these 144 rail recommendations, the responses to 126, or almost 88%, have been assessed by the board as being fully satisfactory.

We currently have 18 outstanding rail recommendations requiring action by the regulator and the industry. We've recently completed and published our annual reassessments of most of these. These touch on everything from fencing along railways to reduce opportunities for trespassing, to the implementation of physical defences to mitigate against human error and following signal indications, and, of course, those coming out of our Lac Mégantic investigation, to name a few.

However, sometimes it takes Transport Canada a very long time to implement our recommendations. For example, in 2001, the board issued a recommendation to Transport Canada to “expedite the promulgation of new grade crossing regulations”, something the department had already been working on for over 10 years at that point. It wasn't until late 2014 that the new grade crossing regulations were implemented.

That's why, a few years ago, the TSB produced a safety watchlist, highlighting those issue we feel pose the greatest risk to Canada' s transportation system.

Currently there are four rail issues on the TSB watch-list. These are railway crossing safety, the transportation of flammable liquids by rail, following railway signal indications, and on-board voice and video recorders.

There's also a fifth issue that affects not just rail, but also other transportation modes, including marine and aviation, and that is the issue of safety management and regulatory oversight.

Our last watch-list was published in 2014 and we'll be preparing an update before the end of 2016.

In closing, we at the TSB appreciate your focus on rail safety and appreciate being asked here today to speak with you. We hope that our presence will help inform your work and, in particular, we would respectfully suggest that there are two areas that this committee could address. First, is the need for an expedited regulatory process when it comes to implementing safety-related regulations. Second, it could follow up to ensure that Transport Canada is fully addressing the regulatory oversight issues that were raised by the Auditor General and by our own investigations, particularly in the aftermath of the Lac-Mégantic tragedy.

Thank you.

I'll now take questions.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

We start with Ms. Block.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

I'd like to welcome all of you here today. I'm looking forward to the questions that my colleagues will be asking you.

You noted in your remarks that the fifth issue on your watch-list relates to rail safety and safety management systems and regulatory oversight. Can you expand on what your particular concerns are and what the solutions might be?

4:15 p.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Kathy Fox

As I indicated, the issue of safety management systems and regulatory oversight is a multi-modal one, but given the focus here, I will focus on rail safety.

One of the things we've identified through our investigations in the past is that even when railway companies have a safety management system, that system may not be effective at identifying and addressing the risks in their operation. That was certainly one of our findings in Lac-Mégantic. If the company is not effective through its own safety management system at identifying these risks and mitigating them, then it falls back to the regulator, in our view, to identify those aspects of the operation and take action that will be effective at bringing a company back either into compliance with the regulations or to being more effective in addressing the risks.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Have you observed any differences in the safety climate between a short-line and a main-line railway?

4:15 p.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Kathy Fox

I can't pick out any one particular one. Certainly the larger class 1 railways would typically have more infrastructure internally to support their safety management system, but in our belief, any commercial operator, regardless of mode, should have a means to manage their safety risks. That requires some sort of institutionalized and documented formal process for identifying hazards and mitigating risks. That said, I can't say that we've seen a specific difference between the two through our investigations.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

In either your third or fourth point on the watch-list, you also raised the question of the on-board tape and video recordings. Can you explain that a little further? That is something we are focused on in this study.

4:15 p.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Kathy Fox

In the air modes and marine modes of transportation, many operators are required to have on-board voice recordings. There's not yet a requirement for video recordings, but some operators are putting them in. That's not a requirement in the rail mode. There's no requirement for either voice or video, and the TSB has made recommendations in the past that both types of recordings be available.

From our perspective, it's absolutely essential to finding out what happened and why it happened. In some cases, we don't have a live crew. An example would be the VIA 92 derailment in Burlington, where the three crew members were all tragically killed. We did our best to identify why it happened, but without a crew and voice or video recordings to find out what was going on, it was very difficult for us.

So there's that aspect. It certainly has proven to be extremely beneficial for accident investigation. But beyond that, Madam Chair, we also believe that the use of voice and video recordings in all modes of transportation, and particularly in this case in rail, can go a long way to helping railway companies identify hazards in their operations and take steps before an accident occurs, provided it is used in the context of a proactive non-punitive safety management system.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Okay. Thank you.

We heard earlier from Transport Canada that they receive risk assessments from railways after significant changes take place in their operations, and we heard that it is the railways, not Transport Canada, that determine what is considered to be a significant change in their operations. Is this reactive method a concern at all for the TSB?

4:20 p.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Kathy Fox

We've definitely seen in a number of our investigations over the years that there are sometimes weaknesses in the risk assessments that are done by railway companies. Either they may not identify the hazard, or they may identify it and not take appropriate mitigation. This predates, certainly, Lac-Mégantic; there are other reports where we've identified this.

I think the evolution to a mature safety management system and a mature risk management process, while it may not be perfect, does take time, and it does take learning—unfortunately, from some bad experiences—but hopefully the system will become mature over time and will be more effective than it has been to date in some cases.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Mr. Iacono.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

When the TSB investigates an accident, no other federal department except DND and the RCMP may investigate for the purpose of making findings as to the causes that contributed to the accident. If one of these agencies investigates an accident, does that put the TSB on the sidelines? Who leads the investigation? Do the RCMP and DND have the expertise to investigate that the TSB has?

4:20 p.m.

Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Kathy Fox

In terms of your last question, I don't think we're in a position to address whether they have the resource or the expertise.

What I can tell you is that if there's an air accident, because that's really the only overlap with either of those agencies, we will more than likely do the investigation. In terms of those agencies, we will collaborate with any investigation that they may have ongoing for their own internal purposes, because they obviously want to be able to find out, to some extent, what went wrong. We will undertake that investigation. We'll collaborate with those agencies, but at the end of the day, it's our investigation.

In the case of a military accident, we don't get involved unless there is some civilian component.

Mr. Laporte.